Guest: Layli Suel, Shea Booher, David Bray
Date: December 20, 2017
Debra Ruh: Hello, everyone. This is Debra Ruh, and you’re listening or watching Human Potential At Work. We’re going to continue a conversation that we started last week with David Bray, who is part of the People-Centered Internet and also very involved in the #ChangeAgents, which I’m very proud to be a part of. David is going to be joined by two change agents that have very powerful stories, and we’re excited to hear more about them. Teresa and Layli. So lets re-introduce you, David, or introduce, if people haven’t seen the past episode, and then we’ll turn it over to Teresa and Layli to introduce themselves. Welcome to the program.
David: Thanks for having me, Debra. It’s great to join you again, and continuing the conversations about why we need positive change agents across organizations and sectors. Real briefly, I currently serve as the executive director for the People-Centered Internet Coalition that was co-founded by both Vint Cerf, co-creator of the internet and Mei Lin Fung. Our goal is to really encourage networks of change agents with the prentice that change that matters and change that last now-a-days is not done by any one person but by done by change agents willing to step outside of expectations and connect with others to work across sectors and organizations and deliver results that show a better way. It’s all too easy to be frustrated and get angry about or frustrated about things that are happening. What we’re really asking for is show a better way, be positive about it, and demonstrate how to move that forward.
Debra Ruh: Well said. So, Teresa, do you want to introduce yourself?
Teresa: Sure. I’m Teresa Shea Boyer. I am a public servant, though I’m participating today in my personal capacity. I do work in the IT sector though doing mostly policy and strategic planning. I am also the founder of an employer resource group and the resource group’s called The Three Blind Mice. It’s a blind and low vision resource sharing group. I am an advocate for certainly for accessibility and encouraging change, and very involved in the disability community even though that’s not my primary line of work.
Debra Ruh: I saw one of your talks and you really, really impressed me in the talk. So we’ll have to talk that link and make sure it’s part of our marketing because it was very impressive. So welcome to the program, Teresa.
Teresa: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Debra Ruh: Layli, you want to go next?
Layli: Sure. Hi, I’m Layli Suel. My background, my career has really been in supporting different types of business and IT transformation, varying levels of complexity. I had the opportunity recently I’ve done mostly private sector look to be part of really David’s team as a positive change agent supporting some Federal Government IT transformation. So yeah. I have a particular interest in the human side of change. Yeah. I’m really happy to participate.
Debra Ruh: Yeah. Thank you for being part of the program. I was excited about what each of you brings to the table, and I agree with everything David said when we first started. It is going to take each of us being positive change agents to make the world a better place. We can sit around. We can complain on social media. We can grumble to each other. We can watch funny political shows. My husband and I used to do that a lot. But I think it’s really about how we bring positive change to the world. Certainly something that I’m very interested in as well as I know you are as well is how do we make sure that everyone can contribute and participate, and as Teresa was saying earlier, accessibility and inclusion, making sure that we all can contribute to changing the world, making it better for every person globally, I just think is something that is certainly worthwhile. So I want to encourage my audience once again to get involved in the #ChangeAgents. Right now we’re very big on Twitter, but it’s also, we’re having these conversations on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on all of the mediums. On Instagram, on Pinterest. I think this is just a small example, these three really talents individuals that’s on the program today, about what together we can all do.
I know that was a weird sentence structure, but still, what we can all do together I think is very powerful.
David: One thing, Debra, I think both Layli and Teresa were extremely humble in their introductions. So I’m going to … Layli, to her credit, she parachuted into a change adverse organization, let’s say lightly. There was a project that even the vendor had said would probably take four to five months. To her credit, she got it done in less than two months.
Debra Ruh: Wow.
David: Her positive change introduction. So I’m going to ask her to share a little bit about this, and then also, Layli, if you could share a little bit about when you said you’re like a seed. I think that would also be a powerful message.
Layli: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I’m happy to start. So as David mentioned, part of our team to really help provide some leadership and be positive change agents to enable IT transformation for the business really involved introducing folks to new IT applications, and moving some of those IT capabilities into the cloud. So for a lot of these folks, honestly, fear of change is a part of human nature, and that doesn’t change when you go to work, right? Folks are always a little bit hesitant about any kinds of changing that you’re making to work place and certainly the tools they use. That’s certainly what we were doing. I think it’s fair to say it was rather an ambitious timeline.
Hoping for the kinds of changes we wanted to make. In my career, there were types of business transformation, some of them IT related. I’ve always been really interested in, like I said, the human side of change. Really how this impacts people and how we make folks comfortable with these kinds of changes. Not just because I care about how people feel about the change, but also, honestly, if we don’t really look carefully at the human side of change, changes are often not sustainable. So it was really important to take these.
I want to talk in terms of a couple behaviors that I have really tried to focus on and then I’ll give you an example. Couple of things you can do to be successful is really try to find ways to resolve ambiguity. With a nod to social psychology, the number one reason people fear change is really they don’t understand what’s coming. If you’re going to provide a message to folks, one of the things you really want to do is you want to make it as personal as possible. People find that when we talk about sharing information and learning, we do it best from each other. I mean, it’s great to do it on this webinar, for example, but if I was in your living room, we’d have an even closer conversation. So one of the things I really try to do in terms of IT transformation is find ways to meet with people.
One example we had was we’d hold these Q&A sessions and I had one in the commission meeting room with the FCC. It was come one, come all. Folks did come. The way I like to characterize is it was pitchforks and torches. For many folks, they had a lot of questions. Very challenging atmosphere. But I was really open with folks. For our challenges and really try to get them to understand the road map. Certainly, that’s not sufficient. We created [inaudible 00:08:20] intensity, where a lot of positive outreach. So I did something that was, I think, a little bit unprecedented for these kinds of transformations. I got my team together. We went sort of door to door office style. Had conversations with them where we could one to one. That personal approach really, really helps.
Having said that, there’s always going to be folks who are detractors and folks who are resistant. They don’t feel entirely comfortable. I think the quote David was eluding to is one that really speaks to positive change agents. The way they say it is they try to bury me. They didn’t realize I was a seed.
Debra Ruh: Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, good one. Good one.
Layli: I love that one. That really speaks to being persistent. You’re going to reach out to folks, but it’s going to happen and you want to build that relationship for the longer term. So you find different opportunities and different ways to reach out to folks.
Debra Ruh: I have a quick question before we move to Teresa. I assume that I know part of this answer, but I want to say it anyway. So as you were going door to door and really trying to make sure that everybody was involved in the decisions that you were making to make sure it was, certainly, the positive change, how does making sure that everybody’s included, really making sure, having a diverse conversations and inclusion conversation. I know Teresa’s going to be able to add a lot to that conversation. But I always think of an example, I had Sandy Price whose now with Amazon on the show. She talked about Mattel taking Barbie and giving her artificial intelligence, but the small team that was used, small, brilliant team I’m sure, was all mean. So they taught Barbie to talk about … Yeah. Obvious career choices for us ladies, which is fashion design instead of stem sciences. Mattel got a lot of flack for that. I just think the importance of a very diverse team, which we’re talking about positive change agents as well, but I was just wondering if you could just talk about that for just a moment.
Layli: Yeah. No. Of course, the diversity and point of view is extremely important, as well as diversity within your team in terms of people’s backgrounds and outlooks. That’s really important. I’ll speak to those folks with disabilities or impairments. I think this is really interesting. At the time I was in the FCC, we had the chairman who really took a very strong personal interest and was a very strong disability advocate. One of the things we really wanted to implement, and it wasn’t directly my project but certainly dove tailed with the work I was doing, was really trying to make some of these cloud services readily accessible to [inaudible 00:11:25] folks. So we had some great tools.
I have a really fond memory of meeting with one of the folks at the FCC, really some of the staff that was visually impaired. More customary for folks to say, “Well, I meet with most folks and then I also sort of look at disability rights.” We actually sort of do the opposite. We started with the Disability Rights Office. We started with the IRO, that was our starting point. We really talked about those cloud tools up front. Yeah, just remember the warm feedback and welcome. It was just a really great atmosphere.
Debra Ruh: Congratulations on that project.
Layli: Thank you. Thank you.
Debra Ruh: So, David, I don’t know if you want to step in here and tell us a little bit more about Teresa, but I just had the blessing. You sent me one of the talks he did at Google, and she really blew me away. So I’m a fan, Teresa.
David: Well, I mean, I’m sure Teresa can speak for herself, but I’ll play the flail and sort of say just like how Layli talked about how when someone tries to bury you, that’s when you become a seed, and you’re politely persistent and you use it as an opportunity to grow. I think what I find with Teresa is she is the definition of someone who finds a way to thrive with whatever circumstances she gets handed. On top of that, uplift others in the process. So with that, Teresa, do you want to tell us a little bit more about what you’ve done?
Teresa: Thank you, David. Sure. So for those don’t know my story, I lost my vision as an adult right before my 25th birthday, which greatly shifted my life and where I thought I was going to where I am today. It’s become a passion and a project at the same time of as Layli was talking about, change in people, the human factor, people being resistant to change, and those people that are the hardest to convert. I find in the disability community, it’s often those people who fear disability or fear change the most that have the biggest issue with it. The other thing is people are on one side of the spectrum. Either they’re afraid to say anything or they have zero filter. To me, there needs to be something in between. We need to be able to have those discussions to talk about the important topics in an open and honest way but also with respect with one another.
Guess what, I know I’m blind. You don’t have to come up to me in the grocery store and tell me that. I got it. At the same time, we can talk about it. It’s not something that I’m ashamed of. It’s part of who I am. It’s not who I am, but it’s part of who I am. Especially as a country and as a world with all of the advancements that we’ve made in science and medicine, people are living longer. Most people acquire disabilities as they age. So where we are now, where we are in 10 years, 20 years is going to be dramatically different. You’re going to see a number of people with disabilities on the rise. Technology now plays an incredible part of that, especially as we’re looking towards all these things like AI and VR, the machine learning. It is going to be critical that we’re thinking about how do we access this in all different ways, and how do all sorts of people have the same level of participation in life.
The other thing I’ll just throw out a couple of statistics because I think they’re really impactful. People in the U.S. with disabilities are the largest minority population that we have here, which is pretty amazing. The Census Bureau also predicts that 25% of today’s 20 year olds will have a disability by the time that they reach retirement age, which for that age group is 69. So you think about that. One in four. That’s incredible. Are we preparing ourselves for our own future. The future of our spouses, the future of our partners, our family, our community. That’s where I think we have so much opportunity, and in technology, there’s so much innovation that it is thinking with a different part of the brain, it’s doing things a little bit differently, but it’s exciting. I find it exciting anyways.
Debra Ruh: No, I agree. I get very excited. I want to make a correction. I said Sandy Price, it was Sandy Carter. I want to do that. But also, I really do think it’s exciting, Teresa, because I really liked the way you talked and how you gently explained your story. Then you just in what I see as a positive change agent way, just really talked about the facts and the data. I loved the comment that you just made and you had made in your talks as well, which is this is for your future. So you have someone like my daughter, Sarah, that was born with an extra chromosome. So she was born with Down Syndrome. But my husband, he didn’t have a disability, but as he aged, he has acquired several disabilities. He has a severe hearing loss and he also is walking some other things. As I’ve aged, I have to have my reading glasses. I don’t hear as well. I don’t think … But I don’t want the world to just assume that I don’t have anything to offer just because I am a human being and human beings, we have abilities. We have disabilities.
So it’s an interesting play because you don’t want to underestimate it and say, “So what, she’s blind. Who cares?” But at the same time, it’s about really tapping into who we are as human beings, and I think technology has such an important place to play, a very important role. As you said, we’re living longer. Now someone who is an elder, I’m still getting used to that idea, but that’s okay. I’m very excited about it, and I think we need more voices like yours. We need David. We need what Layli’s doing, and understanding that she’s going to do a better job at what she’s doing when she’s including everyone. I think we’ve got to change the conversations that we’re having to conversations like this, as opposed to, “I’m just not going to understand you because I don’t agree with something you said,” or whatever. “You look different from me. You love people differently.” It doesn’t really matter. We’re human beings, and I think that’s why these conversations are so powerful. It is truly about being leaders, change agents, and really understanding that not only are we one country, the U.S., but we’re one world. We all add value to the conversations if we allow each other.
So, David, let me turn it back to you because I know you’re going to help me play host to give questions to Teresa and Layli. But I appreciate you, David, taking all this leadership that you’re doing. I know I was blessed to go to one of your change agent groups in Washington D.C., but you get to work with amazing women like these two. What can you accomplish when you surround yourself with this kind of wisdom?
David: Oh, you’re absolutely right that both Teresa and Layli are both amazing women and amazing people. I had the opportunity to work with them is why I do what I do. It’s inspiring. I think listening to both what Layli and Teresa were sharing, I think it’s interesting for each of us to reflect a little bit about change has two dimensions that I’m going to put forward. There are changes that we initiate because we see a better way, and then there are also changes that happen to us that may not necessarily be of our own choosing, they may not be good, they may not be what we wanted, but we can then from that experience try to still find good in the midst of it. I think that is where …
I mean, Teresa inspires me because if we all think about had we had a similar experience, would we be as positive going forward, would we have used that as a opportunity to actually bring good? I mean, she briefly touched upon her group, The Three Blind Mice, which I think is a wonderful way of owning this and then actually trying to help other people through the process, but would we have been that courageous as Teresa? I don’t know. Layli as well. I mean, she was very, again, humble in how she mentioned it, but part of when you bring change is people aren’t always going to like it. She did get some flack, and then part of my job was to be there to count the sum. But she still did get some flack, and she never lost her politeness. She never lost her positivity. Again, how many of us would have had that happen and had that same positivity versus breaking down and either getting discouraged or resulting in just saying, “Well, I don’t like that person.” I’m reminded of a quote from Abraham Lincoln that says, “I don’t like that person. I must get to know that person better.” To me, that’s what Layli embodies.
So I guess my question for both Teresa and Layli is just on their reflections about what advice do you have to other people that are having either change placed on them that they don’t really want but its happening, or they want to bring change but they’re getting discouraged?
Teresa: Layli, do you want to go first?
Layli: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. For me, it always comes down to engaging personally with people even if you’re sort of the recipient of the change or it’s a change that you’re trying to enable. I just feel like your comfort level is going to be greater and the comfort level of your stakeholders is going to be greater if you kind of create, as much as it is possible, a personal relationship and a personal connection with people. Again, like the seed being buried and continuing to grow and thrive. That relationship may be won’t happen with one contact, one piece of outreach. I really think it’s better with a continued conversation, and taking lots of opportunities. David was spot on. I mean, it’s not always the case of people going to be receptive when you first reach out to them, honestly. But I very rarely been disappointed after taking several opportunities to engage with people and really try to foster a personal connection with them. I’m rarely disappointed.
Debra Ruh: I do just want to remind or re-introduce this fact that David was the CIO of the FCC when he was working with Layli and that’s when I met him as well. We had him on Access Chat. So I couldn’t remember if we mentioned that, but I loved your answer, Layli. I loved your answer. It’s a beautiful answer, and I think that’s the way we change the world thinking like that. I’ve always been like that, but I will tell you, I’ve been criticized in my lifetime as being a Pollyanna, and, “Oh, don’t listen to Debra. She’s always going to find the silver lining. She’s so positive.” I just think the world works better that way, but I’m curious if you ever have any kind of push … I always find it interesting people can find it bad that I’m a nice person, but do you have any kind of pushback in that you’re too nice?
Layli: Yeah. I visited my parents this past weekend. It was my dad’s birthday, and my mom said, “You know, there are a lot of tough things in the world, and sometimes I feel like you’re not paying attention because you’re always so cheerful.”
Debra Ruh: I know. It’s like, yes, yes. Okay. Cool. It’s not only me that gets comments like that.
Layli: Yeah. Yeah. What I shared with her is that of course I feel like often we have troubled times, right, and there’s certainly a lot of challenges. But I think how we overcome them is that we foster space with people where you have a positive comprehension. I just feel pretty strongly that continuing a negative aspect doesn’t really bring about the change that we’d all like to see.
Debra Ruh: Well said. Well said. I totally agree with you. Teresa, we’re going to turn it over to you to answer this question or make comments.
Teresa: So every day I have a choice. I have a choice about what I bring to the world, I have a choice of how I approach it, how I interact with people. I can’t control everybody else. But what I can do is approach things and yes, looking at that silver lining. I could also choose to be miserable, sit at home, and wallow. But why do I want to do that? The only one that it affects poorly in the long run is me. I would rather choose to give than to take that negative energy and create that negativity around me. I think that not only do I personally benefit by feeling the positive outcomes of bringing positive energy, but also, it’s reciprocated in a lot of ways.
The way you approach people, the way you talk to people, that’s often reflected back. Not always, but you’re more likely to … What is the saying about sugar and vinegar or honey and vinegar of capturing flies? But it’s one of those things that we can all … You never know what’s going on with someone else either. When you take yourself and you treat people like you’d want to be treated, you extend those simple kindnesses and respect all around. It can really have a big impact and it can be something very small. But I think that those things are the things that can win people over and can make people say, “Oh, yes. I can do that.”
To go back to David’s question about people who either want to become change agents or feel like they’re being pushed down. Again, the only thing you can do is you can’t control people around you. You can influence them. A lot of that, I have found, is not done through force, but people see success, people see positivity and gravitate towards it. If you can bring people on board in that manner, you can get this following and this energy that is much more impactful than laying down the hammer and saying you have to do this, you must change. No. Come with me. I want you to be with me. That’s really the attitude that I have found is helpful. I also gravitate towards those type of people. I mean, that’s why I’m friends with David. He’s one of those types of people.
Debra Ruh: I agree.
Teresa: I think people want to get on that bandwagon.
Debra Ruh: I think so too. I think people, they’re drawn to the positive energy. That’s what I’ve found, and I’ve had people say, “When you’re doing your speeches, they’re great, but what we really love about it is the energy.” Teresa, I work obviously a lot in disability inclusion fields and I just want to come back, just for a second, to a positive aspect of your story, if you don’t mind. So you lost your sight at 25. A lot of people are very fearful of a situation like that because my daughter, she was born this way. She was born with an extra chromosome. It’s who she’s always been. But I think a lot of people fear … And often when we say as disability advocates, “Well, the reality is that someday you’re going to be probably take this walk too in some way.” Sometimes get afraid when you say that, and I know that when you’re saying it, when I’m saying it, it’s not meant as a negative. It’s just part of being alive is experiencing contrast and learning. I believe, making the world a better place for those coming behind us and next to us and everything else.
I was just wondering if you wouldn’t mind just addressing that just for a little while.
Teresa: Sure. I mean, when I first lost my vision, it was very sudden. Essentially over night. Not to get into the medical stuff behind it, but from the instant that we figured this out and moving forward, there was so much to learn. I have to say, I have to credit my mother with being a champion for me. Figuring out what do you do next of what are the resources, where do you go, how do you get training. I mean, I couldn’t get toothpaste on a toothbrush at first. I had small goals in the beginning of I’m going to get back to work. I’m going to be able to put makeup on. I mean, little things like that.
I’m the runt of the litter. I’m one of six. I’m not the youngest, but I’m the smallest and I’m probably the feistiest. I wasn’t going to hold on to someone else’s arm for the rest of my life. That’s not who I am. But at the same time, there was so much to logistically learn that three year later I woke up and it’s like, “Oh my gosh. I’m blind.” I have all of this emotional baggage that I hadn’t dealt with. I think that that is really as important as learning how to do things in a new way. I don’t think people want to talk about the fact that there is a grieving process. It’s like anything else. You go through those stages of grief. I certainly did. But I didn’t stay there.
Debra Ruh: Right.
Teresa: That’s really how do we talk about this in a way where you don’t have to sit at home and wait for a cure. There are other options. There are certainly training. There’s learning opportunities. You can still continue no matter what. I think that there are lots of, certainly in the disability community, there are lots of people that feel that way. Then there are lots of people that just don’t know. They don’t have that advocate that can get them the information that they need, and particularly in the blind community. You think about it. If you suddenly lose your vision, how do you access anything? How do you use your computer? I mean, that’s the gateway to everything, and if you can no longer do that and you don’t have anybody who can help, what are you left with? Again, I think that we do have a choice in this. We have a choice every day with the attitude that we project and that we want to come with. But at the same time, it’s important to talk to people to have a network so you can share information on what’s available. So it can be a larger conversation throughout the community.
David: Teresa hits on a very key dimension of leadership. We often talk about positive change agents and leadership as those people willing to step outside of the expectations and step beyond the status quo, but implicit in that definition is actually that leadership is how you manage loss. Whether it’s the loss of the old way of working, the old way in which you operated that technology, or a loss in terms of something that’s happened to you personally through the organization. People will watch and observe how you as a change agent, as a leader, handle that loss. If you force it upon them, you’re probably not going to get a good long term following. If you don’t try and be sensitive to the fact that there is a grieving process to that loss, I mean, even if it’s just a way of working. Obviously, no where near as big as what Teresa and others have experienced, but there is a process to that. So I think that’s key because we seem to have lost … Too often we conflate leadership and management, and we think if you’re just doing your job or if you’re out there as a boss, you’re being a leader. That’s like, no. It’s really how good are you at having the empathy necessary to recognize that if you’re truly leading, there is some loss associated with that and people are watching how you’re going to manage that.
So I’d actually ask for Layli’s reflection real quick. I mean, she was, in some respects, leading that charge. So does she have some thoughts about how that was in her role as a change agent.
Layli: Yeah. I love what you said about empathy because I think people are very sensitive, especially in the moments and the emotion of change to how they perceive people are sensitive to how they’re feeling during that period. If you have folks who are managers, as you said, David, and maybe not really taking on a real leadership role in the fullest sense, they will notice right away that you’re not really engaged in their feeling and their sense of loss. I think for those folks that makes that change even more difficult, and probably makes them even less likely to really want to engage in the change.
I just want to say, I really love what Teresa said about come with me. I thought that was just really … That sums it up so, so very nicely. It’s not something where I’m kind of observing you from a distance and saying, “Hey. Let’s go.” It’s like, “Let’s be part of my team and part of this conversation and part of this movement.” It’s that inclusion that I think is really, really important.
Debra Ruh: I agree. I agree. Well said. Well, I know that we’re pretty much out of time. I think that I could talk to y’all for many, many more hours, but before we go, I would really like you each to tell the audience how they can follow you. I mean, Teresa, you mentioned that you have a company. Tell us how they can find you on … How can they interact with you if they want to ask more questions?
Layli, you want to go first because you’re on the stream.
Layli: Yeah. Sure. I’m on sort of all the customary social media bits. You can find me on LinkedIn and on Twitter. I do Facebook and Instagram. So I’m kind of everywhere.
Debra Ruh: How would they … What’s your common tag?
Layli: Yeah. So on LinkedIn it’s all R. Layli. So on Twitter and LinkedIn, yeah you’re going to look for R. Layli. Yeah, if you follow me, please reach out. Love to engage.
Debra Ruh: Yes. Thank you. Teresa, you want to go next?
Teresa: Sure. Just to clarify, I do not have a company. The Three Blind Mice, it’s an employee resource sharing group.
Debra Ruh: Oh, okay. Thanks for the clarity.
Teresa: Personal capacity. I’m not going to reference that specifically because that is internal to the organization that I work for.
Debra Ruh: Okay.
Teresa: I am on LinkedIn. I have this … I’m not on any other social media because I do want a balance of personal life versus what I put out there professionally. But you can certainly find me on LinkedIn and it’s Teresa Shea Boyer.
Debra Ruh: Thank you. David?
David: So I’d recommend for folks interested in positive change agents and why we need a more people centered internet, you can go to People Centered, you can spell it either the U.S. way of C-E-N-T-E-R-E-D or the British way. Either which way that URL works on itself. So it’s PeopleCentered.net. That’s where you can sort of subscribe to our newsletter. You can see what we’re trying to encourage around the world. For myself, I’m really only on Twitter and on LinkedIn. So on Twitter you can find me as Chief C-H-I-E-F underscore Ventures, and we’d be happy to have the continued conversation about the need for more positive change agents. As you mentioned, the #ChangeAgents, as one word. I think that’s something that we all sort of try to inspire and encourage because, again, any one of us can do it, as long as we’re linked to embody the empathy and the understanding that we are managing friction and we are, to some degree, either dealing with change or helping bring change to groups that may not initially understand why it’s occurring.
Debra Ruh: Very well said. Thank you all for being on this show, and more importantly thank you for being change agents. I think this is the way we’re going to change the world for the positive. So thank you all for being on the program today. Goodbye, everyone.
David: Thanks a lot, Debra. Thanks, Layli and Teresa. You’re amazing.
Debra Ruh: I agree. I agree.
Teresa: Yes. Thank you.
Layli: Thank you.
You’ve been listening to Human Potential At Work with Debra Ruh. To learn more about Debra and how she can help your organization, visit RuhGlobal.com. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and you want to make sure that you don’t miss any future episodes, go to iTunes and subscribe to the podcast Human Potential At Work. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back next week with a new episode.