#3DVU​​​ The impact of women in our lives. Episode 7 Season 2
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#3DVU​​​ The impact of women in our lives. Episode 7 Season 231 min read

In this episode we go over the impact that women have had in our lives and our perspectives around the fight for gender equality and what we can do to really get there.

Transcript of Episode 7 Season 2

Richard Streitz: I think. At a cultural level. I carry a lot of baggage built on old stereotypes and so forth that, I do everything I can to to eliminate and to remove, but we’re all products of our time and our environments. And and it’s hard to shed that sometimes. And so, there’s so so much baggage that goes along with that.

And I think that baggage is heavier the older the older period of time that you go back, that baggage gets heavier when you relate it to current times to shed. And so it’s an interesting point. Because like you said, you don’t in the, in that, during that period of time, there was already a a greater deal of awareness, social and cultural awareness that was happening a level of enlighten-ness.

LaMondre Pough: Welcome to 3DVU, one conversation, three different perspectives. I’m LaMondre Pough.

David Pérez: I am David Pérez.

Richard Streitz: And I’m Richard Streitz. Thank you for joining us. Hello today as we record this , we are recording is on March 8th, which is the official international women’s day. The day where we recognize women that are important to us at all sorts of levels political, science social, cultural, and personal.

And with that, we thought that it would be good to tip our hats and acknowledge the women in our lives that have effected affected our points as we’ve gone through our life’s journey so far. And either whether that’s key points or in that in our life or individuals that just had general influences into forming who we are.

Because I think that’s true with everybody. I think women have a dramatic, influential part on shaping who we are culturally and spiritually and science. Certainly the science alone, the contributions women have made, the moon, for example, we wouldn’t have gotten to the moon if it weren’t for some very strong-willed talented incredibly intelligent women.

And, and that’s come to light in more recent years. But not, but what’s shocking about that it’s only in recent years, has that actually come to light or have been celebrated more openly. So anyway with that let’s open it up and leading women in our lives or, either, either personally or at a larger, more cultural level.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah, I think about when I think about just how my life has been. I start to think about the women who really have had that impact on me. I was raised by a single teenage mom. For me my mom was everything. She was protective. She was nurturer. She was provider. She was all of those things to me. And so I’d come from a long stock of very strong women who make it happen.

Who who really got it done. My mom and my sister are the biggest heroes to me. They are. And I know some people say sheroes, but they are. They really are. My sister was like my ultimate, is my ultimate role model. I’ve never seen anyone who is so consistent in terms of her work ethic, in terms of her tenacity to get it done, even in the face of adversity, how she just.

She sticks it out and she makes it happen. And she does it with such grace and such poise and such elegance. But then she’s also not to be played with. She is very very upfront, very outspoken and a real advocate for herself. And for those that she cares about and all of those things helped to shape me into who I am today.

And even in many instances how I see the world.

Richard Streitz: Yeah. You very true. And it may be a common theme that everyone will, we’ll talk. I’ll talk about talk about their mother, because I think without doubt, a mother has that initial dramatic imprint. Again, that’s just part of our, part of the nature of things, right? That’s the way we we as animals and species are are hardwired, is that initial imprint of the mother.

And without exception I would agree that certainly in my early formative years my mother played a very important role in establishing some of the foundational character points that I believe are with me to this day. Hard work selflessness what she, the sacrifices that she gave up in raising six kids in a tough household th there was a selflessness that I saw every day growing up as a youth and her dedication to all of us, and in making sure that we had what she didn’t necessarily have and to make us better.

And And so that certainly has played an imprint. It has played an important role in to who I am. You know and then individuals, I do have two sisters, an older sister and a younger sister. They certainly have left an imprint on me as well in many different ways, but nonetheless certainly have played an impactful role and in many ways to this day and as we’ve all matured and grown older, watching them also change as we all do, as we go through again, life’s journey.

Watching that has been interesting and fascinating and again, I think helps form. But anyway, so that’s at a personal level and area. That’s certainly individuals that influenced me in my life.

David Pérez: I have a hard time with this because I never feel like when I talk about the people and what they mean to me, that I’m doing a good enough job of explaining really what it has meant for me, their involvement in my life.

But of course, when we talk about influential women in my personal life, my mom would be first. Then I would have, I can’t even count how many friends I had in school and in high school, in college. And of course my wife, she’s been with me for over 10 years now of our relationship. We’ve been married for three years, but it’s been almost 13 years of being, being together.

And she has taught me a lot and I’ve learned so much. I’ve. I think that the way I see the world is thanks to those women. And also to the fact that I grew up in the two thousands more than in the nineties. So there was a lot of more of openness to these conversations, to actual gender equality conversations and to actually see the achievements of women and celebrate them and see the value of women and start talking about the gender gaps and the equality and all of that.

So that, that built my perspective, which I know is, and I don’t blame anyone for not having that knowledge when they were growing up. But what I see is that it has given me, for me, equality is a given at any point in my life. And that’s just because it’s the way I grew up. I grew up in equal playing field with my peers.

And that was nice. Of course there’s a lot still to be done. And I know I now notice the things that are missing the equation, but it’s been, it’s really been great to know all those women, but it’s also been something that I’ve learned a lot about what we can do together to make sure that the world is better for everyone.

Yeah, I know. It’s not, I never feel like I’m doing justice to the people that I’m talking about.

Richard Streitz: Agreed with that. Yeah. I mean, not for you specifically, for all of us.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah. It’s all three of us on this incident.

Richard Streitz: It’s truly hard to do justice.

LaMondre Pough:  No, you said something interesting.

You said, perhaps it was because you were born in the two thousands that, that, that may have helped to shape how you see things in terms of equality and and gender equity. And, what’s interesting about that. I grew up in, in the eighties and nineties is where I really, grew up.

And interestingly enough, I believe it’s because of my mom and my sister that I have always had that perspective. It was not something that, that I evolved to, as I said, my mother was provider protector, nurturer, all of those things. And so I always saw a woman making it happen. I always saw a woman fully in control of who she is and her destiny in terms of, from my perspective, now having said that, I realized that the world may have been different at that time. So in my house, that’s what I saw in my house. That’s what I saw. And I saw a woman going out into the world and affecting that world with that same attitude, with that same with that same drive, with that same go get it.

But that doesn’t mean that the world accepted her for as she saw her, as she saw herself. So I think that is an interesting difference and what it taught me, what it honestly taught me first of all, was that equality does not mean the same equality does not mean the same. And what I mean by that is I recognize there are fundamental differences between men and women.

We can. We can try to play with that all we want, but we are not the same. Having, and one of the reasons I complained that out, as I said, my mother was more than a nurturer. She was more than a, the person who kissed my boo-boos when I fell, she, my mother also got out there and made it happen.

My mother was also as I said, the provider, she was all of those things. But then I look at some other situations and I see where you have one who is nurturer who was, know, a fit more of their traditional roles during that time. My mother couldn’t out of necessity. She couldn’t.

So I always saw her as, I just saw her as always being able to do whatever she wanted to doing whatever needed to be done and that there was no reason for any breaks. And consequently, my sister is the exact same way. So the women who were around me, they just didn’t fit those molds.

Those molds of you gotta be in this box.

Richard Streitz: Yeah, it’s interesting because, David, the point that you bring up about, about, growing up in the two thousands or, that those being the major years is, I think as a result of that, there’s not as much cultural baggage that you have with you as a result of being in that period of time.

I think. At a cultural level. I carry a lot of baggage built on old stereotypes and so forth that, I do everything I can to to eliminate and to remove, but we’re all products of our time and our environments. And and it’s hard to shed that sometimes. And so, there’s so so much baggage that goes along with that.

And I think that baggage is heavier the older the older period of time that you go back, that baggage gets heavier when you relate it to current times to shed. And so it’s an interesting point. Because like you said, you don’t in the, in that, during that period of time, there was already a a greater deal of awareness, social and cultural awareness that was happening a level of enlighten-ness.

Than, than years previous than decades, previous. And it’s interesting to, to see that, because I know my youth was during that funny transition period of the seventies and eighties, where there was a lot of stuff happening in a, in an, a lot of cultural shifts that were happening during that period of time, where a lot of these older, more traditional stereotypes were starting to get broken and being talked about and so forth.

And by, my family, certain wasn’t traditional. I wouldn’t say that. I wouldn’t say that at all. And and LaMondre, you know, somewhat my mom ran the household, there was no if, and, ors or buts about that. Again, that strong leadership role certainly plays influence but also through periods of it’s my life.

In, when I was in university and so forth, there’s pivotal point points in that life where, of that journey where where women played a key point. And there was certainly an instructor that I had at USC who played a major role in making helping me make a decision with a path that ultimately led me into getting hired at Disney and so forth and taking me on that whole path.

I was really at a crossroads when I was at university because I was studying music and I was studying theatrical design and and production. And so I, I, I had a foot in both of those worlds and I had to, I know that I was at a point where I had to make a decision. Was I going to try to be a professional musician?

Was I going to be a professional production art director, technical director and and I was really struggling with that. And and it was through. One of the instructors that took me under her wing and really helped guide me through, really rationalizing and talking through all of that.

And that really helped me ultimately make the decision I did, which was, I ended up going into the professional production, on technical direction work. And music is still always a major important part of my life, just not professionally. But that was ultimately a conscious choice and it was the help of that individual that really helped me see that.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah. Yeah. Question: So can either of you, or yeah, will either of you recount a time where you recognize the significant, like when you first recognize the cigni, first of all, that women were treated differently than men in many instances. And what was your reaction to that?

Richard Streitz: Yeah. What interesting in a way that you would not expect, and this is why it was so surprising to me.

When I was my last year of my first year in high school, first year in high school I was a freshmen. I worked at Vaughn’s grocery. And as a bag as a bag boy to make to make extra money and I did a couple of hours a day and like everything, I, I. I embrace everything that I do with a tremendous amount of enthusiasm and I strive to be the top of whatever it is that I’m doing.

And so at bagging I was determined to be the best packer. And I got really proficient at bagging I could bag, six bags in a minute. I forget the times of it, but I I was really fast at it and doing ballots bags so that when you pick the bags up the bags, Would all weigh the same.

Cause all, there’s an art and skill to that where as they’re scanning stuff and stuff, stuff is just piling up on the belt there at the cashier and being able to size it up and then being able to distribute, knowing roughly how many bags is going to be in distributing the weight across all of it.

Far more information than anyone probably need on that. But anyway, I’m sorry. And so what they did is they they had a little competition, a bagging competition and part of the competition was exactly that it had to do wheight. It was, I think, eight bags and they had to be within half a pound of or a quarter pound.

I forget some differentiation between all the bags. Evenly distributed the weight and speed. So those were the two criteria. How fast could you do it? And what was the even balanced weight between all the bags? So we did this competition and it was a round Robin sort of thing. I think it was started out with 25 of us or howmany other baggers that were in the store.

And it came down to two of us at the end, myself and a girl. And we’re we, were, ultimately everyone I think knew that it was going to come down to two, to the two of us. Cause we were known as really the speed demons. And I remember that we did the sort of the final and it was really close and I got pulled into the office of the of the manager and he says, This is I’m going to be up with.

And he was always very honest. This, he was a very honest manager, store manager. He was always very fair and very honest. And he said, look, you actually have, technically, you won this, but I’m going to ask you and it’s going to be your call. I’d really like the girl to win. And I can’t remember her name now.

And there’s a lot of reasons that you may not necessarily understand right now, but we think it’s important for the company to have the girl win. And, but it’s your decision if you would allow that. And and I said, okay. I said, sure. And so that’s, and that’s what happened. And it came out later at the time.

I wasn’t really aware, but later on it came out that. They wanted to promote having to do with equality, that bag boys not be traditionally guys. And that there, there is that a female could, could do this and that these jobs were open to, and I know it’s just bagging groceries, but anyway, they were looking at it in a much larger picture and in a much larger light.

And again, the time of this is a this is late seventies, this is 79. And so that’s what happened. But what was interesting is about the point is that it wasn’t equal that there was an issue, the fact, the male and female, that there was issues in the workplace regarding that, and that there was this transition at the time that wasn’t it was gender driven as to trying to create an equality.

All the cashiers were females, all in the store, all the cashiers, there were no checkers that were male. All of the all of the stocking crew, all guys. Okay. And it was at a time when they were trying to mix that up. The company was being cognizant about why it was important.

And I was there during that sort of time. And like I said, I became more aware of that as I worked there more. And what have you, I was there a total, I think, of four years and I ultimately became a night manager in the store myself an ordering night manager. But anyway, so that was that it was at that point that I became cognizant that things weren’t equal or balanced. And that th that there was an issue of this and and that heightened that to me and made me more aware. And then really, honestly, I’ve been very cognizant and sensitive to that really since then, moving forward.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah.

David Pérez: In my case answering LaMondre question it’s I cannot pinpoint a specific moment that had happened, but it started to happening across my whole life.

I had at the beginning, I think it was through sports that I saw the difference because I played a lot of basketball and we were taking so much more seriously than the women’s teams. Like incredibly, but I thought maybe it’s because women don’t care as much about sports. That’s that was my thought process.

So in high school, that was the only difference that I could notice. When I got to college, we had a, a woman president in Costa Rica, the first in Central and North America, a women to be a president. So for me, as I was telling you guys I was I was raised in thinking that we were all equal. So I thought that’s about time, right?

That a woman became president. But then during her presidency, it also is accompanied by the fact that I was already in college and watching the news more actively. I started to see how differently she was treated as a woman president because of being a woman, how the comments were completely different.

And after her presidency, how incredibly resentful people were about her being a woman, not about her presidency, about her being a woman. And that a lot of older people decided they wouldn’t, they would never vote for a woman again, just because she was a woman and she had a normal Costa Rican presidency, like no other there’s nothing to highlight that she did wrong, nothing, but she was a woman.

So of course that was completely eye opening for me, I thought. Okay. So she’s going to be judged on that much of a different scale. That means that every single woman CEO or woman in a higher up position is probably being judged by that same scale and men who’d probably fail a hundred times more, are not being judged as much just because they are not women.

So that’s when I saw that. That’s and I think that’s the biggest inequality in Costa Rica right now that if you’re a woman that’s successful, you’re under so much more pressure than a man.

LaMondre Pough: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

David Pérez: It’s incredible.

LaMondre Pough: Absolutely. It’s interesting. You should bring that up, David, because as I said, growing up, I really never, I didn’t know.

I didn’t see it because of my mom, because of my sister and because of the women that I grew up around. But when I was younger, when I was a kid and I learned about Shirley Chisholm was the first woman to run for to run for president of the United States in the US.

And I just remember hearing that and remembering so why, why is that a big deal? Because my thinking is: my mama could certainly run this country. I know she could no question in my mind. And as a kid, of course she could do it, she could do anything. But I just remember how, and it was my sister who told me about Shirley Chisholm, as I said, my sister is my hero and it was my sister who told me about it.

And I just remember thinking. Alright, but why is that a big deal? And when she started to break it down, you know what, she was the first to do this and she was a black woman and what that meant to her. And so I got interested into who Shirley Chisholm was. And phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal person, phenomenal human being and just incredible in terms of the things that she did in terms of her accomplishments, but still it being lauded as the first.

And it being such a big deal. That was when I realized, wait a minute, if this is a big deal, obviously that means that obviously that means that there’s a problem here. There’s a problem because here I am seeing, these women flying around me with capes on and me not realizing that it’s special me not realizing that is the exception and not the rule.

And so I think that was the first time that it really started to click in terms of a societal standpoint. So fast forward to 2000 to the 2008 election here in the U S when when vying for the democratic nomination, there was Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. And I remember the conversations about her being likable.

I remember the conversations about what she wore. I remember the conversations about her hairstyles. And it was like, and that has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the job, her hairstyle didn’t, the fact that she was whether she was likable or not. I never heard that come up with any other candidate, whether or not people like them or not.

And then fast forward to the 2016 election where she became the democratic candidate. And again, the likeability. Now here’s the question. You’re judging likability of Hillary Clinton when she’s running against the Donald Trump. Now I know now in, in 2021, I know now hearing that it was like ridiculous.

No, he was the same guy that he was the same guy then, and people didn’t talk about his likability as a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, they rotted the fact that she would be the most qualified candidate ever to run for the presidency. And this guy had zero experience in political office, in political leadership whatsoever.

And it boiled down to ‘just didn’t like her’.

You know it was this. This resounding thing of wait a minute, you can actually be the most qualified, the best candidate and people will slaughter you on the Hill of, I don’t like your pantsuits.

Richard Streitz: Yeah, right. Yeah. The double standard is unbelievable. And that’s,

LaMondre Pough: Go ahead.

Richard Streitz: I, and that’s been throughout history, right?

It’s certainly has magnified and amplified at that period of time and more recently, but throughout time it’s been that way.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah. And that was the thing that I was going to say, think about that, that was something that was displayed on the world stage. So if it’s that, if it’s that prominent on the world stage, imagine what our sisters deal with on, who are not in that environment who are not, where the public is watching, where the world is watching. Imagine the pressure that must be on the average everyday person, everyday woman who does not have a bully pulpit, who does not have a platform who does not have, who does not have half of the world behind you.

Mindblowing.

David Pérez: Yeah. Yeah. And this goes back to our previous episode. We’re far away from where we thought we were. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess the three of us have similar experiences in growing up thinking things were better than they are then, that they really ended up being when we actually opened our eyes.

That’s the reality, for most people that grew up with strong women with leadership that you know that there’s nothing different, but then you go out to the world and the world shows you that they want to make it different.

They want to actually make it unequal because that’s how society has been built.

And that’s what we’ve been fighting for a long time. It’s interesting because as I was telling you guys, I was reminiscing on my life and my professional career. And ever since that I’ve been working for women. My, my two biggest mentors in, in, in my professional career have been women.

Carol Britton from the foundation that I worked on for my whole college career. And then Debra Ruh who I’m working for now and it’s, I have nothing but admiration for them. I wish I could be like them.

Driving causes that no one believes in and making sure that change happens and that changes is there for everyone to get it.

They don’t mind it. If nothing about the person that’s getting the benefits, they just want the benefits to happen for all society. And that’s really something that I’m I completely admire. I don’t think I have more words than admiration.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah no that, that’s beautiful because I agree. I agree.

As I said, when I think about my heroes, I talked about, the people who are inside my family, but when I start to look out and even in the city, when I start to look at who are really the movers and shakers, who are really the people rolling up their sleeve and not only leading the charges, but also really making things move forward.

It’s the women like a mentor, Debra is a mentor of mine as well. And watching her affect change, not only, and this is what’s amazing, not only for women, but for people, period, the elevation of inclusion, the concept that, that our differences are what makes us stronger that’s one of the, th that’s one of the reasons why I could say equality does not mean the same.

Richard Streitz: Right.

LaMondre Pough: Because we’re all different and all of those differences should be valued. It’s it’s it’s when I think of, when I think of just the incredible caliber of people that I’ve been introduced to because of people like Debra I think about, Kimberly Bradshaw of Huawei, amazing woman, absolutely amazing.

There are so many that if I try to name, that I’d get in trouble because it’s so many, it would take us forever to get through this. But I have another question since we realized that, that we have not gotten as far as we would have thought we are. What can we do as men, as allies, as accomplices to help change that?

What can we do to help forward the cause of women?

Richard Streitz: I think it’s not rocket science and I think this is, you support and promote people that do the right thing. And that are efficient and are amazing at what they do. You recognize talent and you’re smart and promote it. And if everyone were to do that, there wouldn’t be these issues wouldn’t exist.

It’s the fact that we feel compelled that that we’ve got to separate, you know, either by gender or race or whatever, we have to create these silos and then try to balance them all out. If everyone just treated everyone the same based on their merits as an individual, these issues wouldn’t these issues wouldn’t be.

And, and you mentioned that a bit, when you were talking about Hillary Clinton and and her, her nomination, if she was just considered on the merits of her talents, her skill sets and so forth. All these other things wouldn’t have come into play, but we are burdened by the cultural sensibilities and cultural sensibilities that we are brought up in that tend to override almost common sense in many ways about the mutual just respect and admiration for talented individuals around us that we recognize.

And I think it. It’s not complicated, but it’s very hard to achieve because of the landscape and the environments that, that we are in. And again, you know, we can look at us and we’ve been talking about in, in a, in the Americas North and Central and America viewpoints, but really it’s it transcends geography, these issues exist all over the world at different levels, but nonetheless they exist.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah. You low what was interesting about that, Richard, as you said, it’s not rocket science, it’s not rocket science, but for some reason, we have such a hard time making that turn, making that change, making that transition because people just are holding on, are  holding on to.

David Pérez: Yeah, but it comes from cultural awareness and cultural education. And even though I’ve seen a lot of great efforts being done in schools, in high schools and in education, you need to start changing how religious organizations talk about this, you need to start changing how. T V talks about this and then you can start actually, you can start to expect the change that you want to see, because we’re talking about this from our perspectives.

And from what I gather, all of us have, grew up thinking that equality was the right thing. But imagine that there’s a lot of people that don’t.

LaMondre Pough: Right.

David Pérez: And they’re the ones that teach this too both their male and female kids and their households, and that becomes their reality. And then that translates into society.

And then that translates into politics and business and everything else. So even though it’s not rocket science, it feels like it because there’s so many moving parts in, in changing how culture, how society thinks about a certain topic that movements like celebrating the international women’s day are just a piece of a bigger puzzle in trying to change minds.

And that’s what ha, what needs to happen. And even though it sounds simple, we know it’s not.

Richard Streitz: Right. Right. It’s the execution that becomes immensely challenging.

David Pérez: It’s immensely challenging, but from our little end of the world. What we can do is just keep doing the right things.

And make sure that people that are around us do the right things. Don’t stand by and watch people do the wrong thing and be okay with it. Speak up for people.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah, I believe that is the key component right there. I believe that is a key component right there, because I believe that when we see things.

That are not right. When we see our sisters being oppressed and we see our sisters being degraded or treated as less than, if we are silent, we are complicit. If we don’t say something, if we don’t step in, if we don’t step up, then their bad is our bad as well. We did that. We did that. So I think that we have to step up.

I think that we have to band together because here’s the thing I don’t think that, and, we have to, and this is the, it’s not rocket science, but it’s an art. It is definitely an art because what we have to do is yes, there are the obvious folks that, that we want to do something about that. We want to change the way that they deal in the world. But then there are also those who are a part of the oppressed who don’t realize it or, or they do realize it and they still don’t want it to change.

And here’s the thing I’m not for coming in and making people we’ll see the world as the way that I do. I’m not for that. I believe diversity in thought, diversity in opinion is an important piece of it, but what I am for what I am for if somebody does not want to be oppressed, if somebody wants to be if somebody wants to be full participants, I am for breaking the barriers that prohibits them from doing so.

I’m for that all day long. And I think that is what we’ve got to do. I think that we have to stand up, we have to speak out and we have to show up as men. We have to do this, not to save the day, but to support the sisters who are saving the day for themselves.

Richard Streitz: Mutual respect, right, and honoring you don’t have to think like me, but I’m not going to prevent you from thinking like you.

Right. Yeah. And that’s, unfortunately, it’s easier said than done, but we should identify when we see it, when we identify it is to speak up, to prevent it and talk against it. When we see that behavior and not reward it, certainly.

LaMondre Pough: And even though I’m not going to try to convince you to think the way that I do, I’m certainly not going to stand by the way you create systems, that perpetuate the oppression of anyone. So I’ve got to actively work against systematic oppression of women against the abuse of women and girls. And so I believe that is our role. I believe that is our part is to work, to change that can’t change your mind. Hopefully hopefully you’ll get evidence to change your mind, but I certainly want to change the action that perpetuates the problem.

Richard Streitz: Right.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah, I I’m so glad that we’re having this conversation and thank you, Richard, for leading out this discussion.

Richard Streitz: Absolutely an important discussion and one that we will no doubt, revisit and hit upon on other topics as we because it’s a theme that runs through many of the items that we talk about.

Certainly. So I think that is all for today’s episode. And please, we look forward to having you join us again. Thank you.

LaMondre Pough: Thank you.

David Pérez: Thanks for joining us this week on 3DVU, make sure to visit our website Ruhglobal.com/3DVU. That’s RUHglobal.com/3DVU where you can subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts or join our YouTube channel.

So you’ll never miss a show. While you’re at it, if you find value in the show, we appreciate it if you would leave a like or comment or simply tell a friend about the show that would really help us a lot too. If you would like to join our conversations you can join our Facebook community 3DVU, three perspectives, one conversation. .