Transcript of Episode 1

LaMondre Pough:  Welcome to 3DVU one conversation, three different perspectives. I’m LaMondre Pough.

David Pérez:  I am David Perez

Richard Streitz: And I´m Richard Streitz thank you for joining us.

David Pérez: We’re going to start this conversation talking about COVID-19. How, how it started in December in Wuhan, China, but it didn’t reach the rest of the world until later during the 2020 month of March. We were almost all of us caught by surprise by the fact that we were going to have to stay home for, for one month we tought, then two months.

And that was March. Now it is August, and a lot of people hadn’t had problems, simply staying at home because that’s the only way that we have found to, to not get sick with COVID-19 right now. But now a lot of people are having problems with the fact that they have had to stay home for so long and social isolation, mental issues have become a problem across the globe.

The virus is growing in numbers and things don’t seem to be going to get better soon. So we will have to, to, to stay home longer. And it’s probably going to go deep into 2021. So we wanted to have a conversation about what that means for, for us personally, and what that means for the world in general. And of course, disenfranchised populations like the community of people with disabilities.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah. You know, David, the, the, the facts that you just laid out about how this pandemic progressed, uh, throughout the world and what that has meant, uh, for everyone, uh, with the staying at home and not being able to be social, it’s really created this sense of, of isolation. And even when you’re with the people that, that you love in terms of like your spouse or, or, or your significant other, or what have you, there’s still this sense of isolation.

There’s still this sense of, even though you’re here, I still feel alone. And in some of that, I don’t even know if it’s really isolation. It’s just a disconnectedness. You know, and even though we have, you know, wonderful technologies that allow us to see people when we’re talking to them, people that are working from home.

So they’re using, you know, zoom meetings or Google meets or whatever platform they use, there’s still a sense of ‘I’m not connected’. And I think that that plays, that plays a big part in the collective mental state that we, that we’re all kind of having right now, you know, what are your thoughts, Richard?

Richard Streitz: Well, I, you know, I agree. I think the, uh, you know, one of the biggest challenges that people have is, during isolation, is the fact that, um, especially individuals who, who aren’t necessarily, um, have somebody with them, uh, is, is facing the facts of their, of their own, um, their own internal dialogue, where they may be used to and accustomed to that sort of external influences, uh, and, and, uh, and, and static noise that keeps them distracted from having to delve into their, into their own thoughts.

Um, and that can be very frightening to some people who aren’t used to that, or haven’t had prolonged periods of time with that, uh, in dealing with that, you know, people who meditate and, and, and practice, um, sort of inward perspectives of, of oneself. Um, they, they go through that process much easier, but especially with the advent of the technologies that we’ve all grown so accustomed to we’re con, constantly bombarding ourselves with these external, um, opinions, uh, or voices, um, and thoughts and ideas that help, that we use as sort of surrogates to form our own opinions about stuff. And so when we’re isolated, you know, that that only just becomes exasperated by, by that process. Um, you know, certainly, you know, I think for my situation, um, being with my, my wife, we’re now married almost 30 years, uh,

LaMondre Pough: 30 years, congratulations.

Richard Streitz: Well, thanks. That’s a milestone nowadays.

Uh, you know, when I think about my parents and grandparents, right, that’s still, that’s still almost newlyweds, but, uh, but nowadays yeah, we’re, we’re, I guess we’re kind of an old couple. I don’t really think of it that way, but, um, but, but I, you know, I think one of the benefits of that is that we’ve, we we’ve known each other so well and have come accustomed to dealing with each other on that, you know, day in and day out basis.

Um, we both have, have very active lives and, and professions that are separate from each other. But, you know, so it’s, it’s really the evenings and in the mornings that we’re together and we share and communicate. And so we, we, as a result, I think we end up having that sort of healthy, um, um, outward and then inward, um, relationship in, in dealing.

So even though we’re isolated and together, we still have that sense of, of dealing with people in individual on the outside and then, and then inwardly working together and being with each other, um, um, for the prolonged time. So anyway, that’s, I, that’s sort of my personal experience with that.

David Pérez: Yeah. My, my experience is similar to Richard’s in the fact that I am married and I’m, I’m social isolating with my wife, but I have been married less than two years. So…

LaMondre Pough: Newlyweds.

David Pérez: .. Things are things are of course different. Some might say that they are easier because we are just getting to know each other. There’s a lot of things that we can experience together. But, one thing that happened to us is that during our first year of marriage, we had events every single weekend.

There was not one weekend that we could say let’s stay home, watch TV, and just be together by ourselves.

Right? Because things were happening all around us. And when COVID started and we started to, to have to be here at home. Well, that changed the dynamic completely. We were now looking to what to do, right?

And we’re in a privileged position that we have internet, that we have food here. We are able to get deliveries, almost of everything. So we have had a very good time in that sense. The problem has been more personal. That, the part that Richard was talking about, the fact that we are getting, that we are getting time to think about our, our internal selves more and dealing with that. And also that accompanied by the fact that every single thing that I find in my newsfeed on Facebook, on Instagram, it’s all about ‘you should be scared right now. You should be sad’. Things are scary. Things are, are not supposed to be going right.

So you get that internal conflict and you find yourself suffering. I would say that I’ve been up and down inside and out of depression for the last couple of months. Like, I feel bad because I’m okay. And of course that’s not right. Right? But it’s my experience. What about you LaMondre?

LaMondre Pough: Yeah, my experience has been a bit different, uh, because I’m, I’m divorced and I live by myself.

Um, but the, the thing that kind of compounds that, or that makes it even more interesting, uh, is the fact that I have a disability and my disability is spinal muscular atrophy. Um, and just really quickly, basically I have the same functional limitations as someone who may have quadriplegia. Um, I can’t bathe myself.

I can’t feed myself. Um, You know, so as a result, I’m relying on people to come in and out of my home, uh, to help me do those things that I need to do to live. Uh, basically they call them, uh, activities of daily living, you know, feeding, bathing, dressing, you know, just the stuff you do to get up in the morning and live life.

And so I have people who come in and do that, now prior to this whole COVID-19 thing. I was out in the community. I was active. I was doing different things. Um, so even the fact that I lived alone really wasn’t that much of an issue. Uh, but once COVID came and all that going out and being social had to come to an end, I found myself being surrounded only by people who were paid to be around me.

And I will tell you that is a different kind of interaction. And don’t get me wrong. My, my, you know, my, my aids, my attendants are magnificent people. They come in, they’re caring, they do their job, then they go home. Um, but I will tell you the level of isolation and the feeling of, the feeling of ‘I’m alone’ has really been magnified during this period. And I will tell you another experience that happened to me during this, during this time. At one point I still had select friends and family that came by at, even during this COVID-19 they were practicing social distancing. They were self isolating at home.

Um, so we felt pretty confident. That, um, either that we were doing the right things to kind of stay safe. Um, and even when they came here, they still were masked and we still socially distanced, but at least I had that interaction until one of my attendants, uh, who would come in faithfulness. She did everything she was supposed to do.

She tested positive for COVID-19. Well, of course, because she was my attendant that meant that I had to truly self quarantine. Uh, and that also meant that that circle of support outside of people who were paid to be around me, that crumbled that had to stop because I could no longer put them in danger in the event that I was positive, um, with COVID-19.

So. You know, family and friends that would still drop in to visit me and to check on me and to say hello, or just to hang out with me, that had to stop abruptly because now I could be a danger to them if I was in the positive. So for 14 days I quarantined, thank God I got the results back and I was not positive.

I got a negative test result. But what that did though, was, that meant that my whole world had to be reshaped because how do you effectively self quarantine when you rely on people to come in from the outside, when you, when a part of what makes life possible is people putting their hands in your face.

You know, when people have to be in close proximity to you. And like you, David, I know that I’ve had bouts with depression through this, you know, there’s some days I’m really good and I’m ready to roll and everything is good. But then there are other days when it’s almost like, ‘Oh wow, they’re here to get me up’.

I don’t want to get up. I want to stay up under the covers and just bury my head in the sand and just wish this whole thing away. And there have been varying degrees of that. There are times when my energy levels are really high and I’m ready to roll and I can take on the world. And there are other times where it’s like, ‘Oh wow’.

I did, the analogy that I use for that, it’s like, ‘I’ve never done this, but I like to link it to swimming through jello. If that is at all possible, that is like, yeah, you can probably do it, but it’s probably going to be pretty tough, you know? And so that that’s, that’s been my experience and that’s um, yeah, that that’s been my experience.

And it’s been, it’s been an interesting journey so far.

David Pérez: Yeah. And there’s the extra added thing that you have had a personal experience with COVID. With having that attendant have COVID is of course, a scary thing, and that’s going to change a lot of things in your mindset, but you have also had family members that have been infected with COVID and you have had friends and family, and that’s different from, from my case, because I live in Costa Rica, a very small country in Latin America, that, we have very few people.

And I can tell you that I don’t know anyone personally, that has COVID. And I’m still scared. I can’t imagine how, how that has affected your, your emotions.

LaMondre Pough: It certainly has. Um, yeah, my, my grandmother passed away because of COVID-19. Um, you know, and I have, you know, multiple family members that have had it.

They’ve thank God. The rest of them have recovered from it. Um, but you know, this, this, um, when you see it, when it actually touches your family, when it actually comes into your home, it certainly shifts your perspective and you realize just how vulnerable we all are. Even when we do all the things that we’re supposed to do to stay, stay safe.

And it does indeed bring about a sense of, I don’t want to say fear. Um, because it’s not really fear that, that, that I feel, I mean, don’t get me wrong. Yes, of course you think about your own health and your own mortality, but it’s not, uh, it’s not like fear, but …

Richard Streitz: maybe a sense of urgency?

LaMondre Pough: And sense of urgency and awareness, but there’s also, I think there’s also just a, a sense of how heavy this really is and what it means because, my grandmother’s gone forever. You know that there, there, there’s no turning back. So when I hear these people arguing about mask and should you wear a mask and it’s, making it synonymous with oppression and slavery, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s it, um, it rings a bit different for me because I understand the loss that’s associated with it.

I understand, you know, how so many families have been affected by it. And, um, you know, and, and it does, I think that that also played a part into the shifts in terms of my energy level, in terms of how deep, um, some of those downtimes have been. Either you try, you, you, you, you, you reach out to people, you do the things that you’re supposed to do.

You reach out for counseling and all of those things. But even in all of that, you’re still living in the middle of it. Because when they come through my door, they’re going to be masked. When they come through my door, we’re going to do all kinds of gloves and precautions and all of those kinds of things.

And these are still not the people who really love me. These are the people, again, as I said, who are paid to be here. So…

Richard Streitz: Yeah.

LaMondre Pough: It, it definitely hits different. And I know that, that that is not a situation that’s exclusive to me. I know that there are millions of people out there that are having those same feelings who are having those same experiences.

That. Um, and we also realized that if, even if I wanted to, if I were to go out and, and do like so many people are doing, I am much more vulnerable to this COVID-19 then many others are I’m considered a part of the, um, high risk population. Not only because I have spinal muscular atrophy, which causes me to have diminished, um, pulmonary functions.

Um, but you know, I also have high blood pressure, you know, I’m an African American and you know, that proportionate, that African Americans are disproportionately affected, uh, by these ill, by this illness. So, you know, there, there are a number of things. Sometimes I do just want to run out the house and just like ‘no mask let me kiss, a stranger’, you know?

Richard Streitz: Yeah, throw caution to the wind.

LaMondre Pough: That’s not a good idea at all. So yeah, it, it, um, it definitely weighs, um, it definitely weighs a lot more heavy. Um.

David Pérez: And I think that’s a feeling that we are all, all experiencing together. The fact that there seems to be no end to this and, and we all get that urge to connect, to be out there to find your friends and family and, and be with them.

But you also have that dichotomy of thinking, ‘I don’t want to put them at risk’, right. I want to be, I want to be safe and I want them to be safe as well. So, so you, you have to stay home, you have to stay home alone. And that isolation, I think, is taking a toll in almost everyone. I know that Richard has had a better experience with this because he has been able to internalize things, you know, in a much better way.

At least in that emotional, mental sense.

Richard Streitz: Yeah. You know, um, I, uh, I do tend to, and I, I’ve learned at a very early age to internalize those, um, those sorts of feelings. So I tend to be much lower key and less disaffected that doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t feel or experienced some, but I don’t necessarily express that externally. Um, and that’s from just a long, a long history of, of having learned to keep those, um, keep those emotions, uh, repressed and that that’s just, um, having to do with, uh, how and when I grew up and, and, uh, and the different groups that I’ve been involved with, uh, growing up and working. So where, you know, you didn’t, um, you just didn’t do that.

So, uh, so that’s certainly a defense mechanism that I leverage. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re not as, as real. Um, to me, you know, I think one of the things that we, as a, as a species, as, as an animal we’re herd animals, that’s, that’s, it’s, it’s, we’re hard wired to be in groups and to socialize.

Um, this is just part of, of the, of our hardwired makeup. Um, Of us as a species. And so any time, like any species that, that falls into that category, when you isolate an individual from, from the group or the herd, there is an immediate, uh, um, There’s an immediate reaction to, to, to depression and loneliness and insecurity and, and all of these, these basic fears that, um, as, again, as much as we try to hide or suppress them they’re hardwired into, into our being into how we, how we are, um, we need people around us, uh, um. This is, this is a typical behavior for, for us.

And so in these times it’s challenging. It is just very, very challenging.

David Pérez: Yeah. And that brings to mind something that, that’s very important. And that’s the fact that COVID, and that the request of governments for people to socially isolate has shown how unequal our countries are, because there are, there are individuals, especially here in Latin America, that don’t get a chance to socially isolate. They work day by day to get the money that they need, to get money to, for food and, and living. So they can’t stay home. They cannot work from home. And the places that they live in are filled with people. Top to bottom. There, they don’t have six feet to stay away from one another. And the solution that has been found here in Costa Rica is, it’s horrible.

They quarantine them in their place of living, but they close the place like it was a crime scene with tape and everything.

LaMondre Pough: Wow. Wow.

David Pérez: Now, if we, the lucky few, are feeling that way, socially isolating, imagine the people that don’t have the tools that we have to cope with it, the internet, the connection with, with our family members. There’s a lot of people that are suffering very heavily because we as a society have not done a good job of including them for years and years, and years and years.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Streitz: Well, certainly the digital divide that exists between, um, the countries and, and, and cultures and societies is, is certainly exasperated by the condition that we’re all experiencing now as, as a global pandemic.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah, absolutely. I’ll tell you though. And even during this. You know, particularly here in the US this, this COVID-19 has also highlighted some disparities because while that is not a mass situation, the situation that happens here in the US like in Costa Rica, um, we do see situations where many of like our farm workers, uh, and, uh, folks experience that very same kind of situation. Um, or even people in nursing homes. In fact that’s how my grandmother passed away, she was, uh, she was, uh, she was in a nursing home. Um, and you know, it, it spread like wildfire, uh, in nursing homes and, and she, uh, she was one of the, one of the people who was affected by that.

And I think the other thing that, that, that happened here, especially in the US was we saw the social uprising, um, that has happened. So all of that plays into this. I mean, you know, when we saw what happened with George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and, you know, Elijah McClain, the list just goes on and on and on.

So not only do you have this global pandemic that’s happening, um, but then you also have, then you also have the uprising. And the reason that I call it an uprising and way more than, you know, the event, uh, that happened because people have a tendency to try to make, you know, whether, you know, the, what happened with George Floyd was the thing that really made it.

Let me tell you that’s been happening over and over again, time and time again, I have a countless list of names that, but that was the first time that people saw it on video and recognized it. For what it was. So this is why I say it’s a, it’s an uprising a social awakening, but all of those things, um, really, really compound the mental state, because I know during, when the video of Ahmaud Arbery, the young man who was dragging through his neighborhood and who was chased and gunned down, um, in his neighborhood, um. There was an anger that arose in me that I don’t think I’ve ever felt before.

And keep in mind, this is all during a global pandemic when I’m isolated. So I had nothing but time to just sit there and allow that to grow. Now, I think what happened from that is that I’ve used that anger and those emotions and that feeling to perpetuate and to push for more social change in terms of what I can do, um, to help in that.

But the truth is I had nothing but time and opportunity to allow that to go wherever it would. And again, that also created more of a, almost like a pressure cooker kind of thing, because you’re dealing with your own isolation, you’re dealing with all of this stuff, and then you see yourself being gunned down or you see your cousins or your loved one or people that you care about being gunned down.

And ultimately what that means is you see you, here now, you see you being gunned down, you see you with that knee on the back of your neck. And so, you know, this is, honestly, man, this is just a, uh, just an incredible time, you know, and, and I mean that in both good and bad ways, it’s really, uh, an incredible time to be alive.

And, um, so it’s really a heightened sense of awareness of everything right now.

David Pérez: Yeah.

Richard Streitz: Yeah. I think that’s what, what really truly overwhelms everyone, because, you know, you’re, you’re dealing with this sort of global social movement, the BLM, BLM movement, you have, uh, the pandemic that’s going on. Um, you have in the US you have this, uh, uh, really divisive election that’s coming up.

Um, that is, uh, um, that has a lot of people, um, very strong opinions on both sides of, of the, of the parties and, and all of that compresses into, into this period of time where any one of those events singularly, it will create some level of, of, um, challenge for individuals to have to deal with and, and come to reckon with how, how do I place myself in any one of these, um, events that are going on and, and how do I feel about them?

And now you’re compounded by, you know, three or four, uh, larger events that everyone is trying to figure out where they fit and how they plug in. And, and it’s multilevel, right? It’s a, it’s a very large, um, complex matrix that, that everyone is trying to. Fit themselves into, and it’s not easily done.

David Pérez: Yeah. 2020 has been a crazy year in general for, I think all countries, of course, the US has the added pressure of the election and the systemic racism that has existed in the US for, for hundreds of years.

But I think that the economies being halted completely is what has made those things more important than ever before, and that people are paying more attention to every single movement that is made by anyone and all of that is happening in just one year. I was looking yesterday at the headlines of what the economies of the world are suffering and it’s bad.

It’s, there’s no other way to put it. GDPs are plummeting. That means that companies are not going to make money because if people don’t have money, companies are not going to make that much money. So we can just expect things to get worse. Right? Because as I said, at the beginning of this conversation, we are experiencing something that we do not see an end to.

And the fact that we’re not seeing an end is of course not only scary, but disheartening. I feel like like every time you get like that motivation to do something to move forward, you think about what you are not going to experience because well COVID and, and you get pulled back. Right?

Richard Streitz: Yeah, no, there’s, there’s no question that the, um, that all the countries are sort of experiencing this universally and all at different, slightly different levels.

But as a whole, everyone is really sort of experiencing the same thing and the fact that we are all tied together, um, financially, uh, you know, through our markets, um, and despite how individual governments may think otherwise about, you know, standing and doing it alone and not needing it or, or, or requiring support from other countries that, the reality is that that’s just not simply the case.

All, all of our economies are so tied together that it’s impossible now at this point to try to just surgically remove one or two or three countries from, uh, from partnering or being engaged with another. Um, and, uh, it’s, it’s a, it’s a very complex model to try to dissect at this point in time. And so I think the sooner and better that everyone truly understands the reality that, uh, that we are all interdependent upon each other. Um, you know, for, for as, as, from the financial standpoint, from a market and trade standpoint, um, we, we, you know, the sooner that we can all truly embrace the reality of that, I think the better off we will be in regard to that sort of larger, um, uh, global, um, certainly within each individual country there’s issues and you know, that that, that have to be dealt with and so forth.

But I mean, I think that’s one issue that, uh, that could be better.

David Pérez:  Yeah, and we don’t have enough time to go through all the problems that every country is going through.

Richard Streitz: That’s for sure.

David Pérez: We would be here for one year and we wouldn’t be able to actually talk about all of them. But one thing that, that, that I grabbed from what you were just saying is that just like human beings are social animals.

I think countries have to realize that they are social things as well.

LaMondre Pough: Absolutely.

David Pérez: They need each other to work, they need each other to produce and they need each other because we have decided the world would be like that. Right. None of us produce everything we need. So we need to share our economies. And right now I think countries have to realize that we need to share the crisis.

Because it is coming. It is a reality and we need to work together to help the people that are most vulnerable across the board. And that will help us all.

LaMondre Pough: See this has been the scorch of nationalism. I think that much of what we see in terms of the state of the world, a few years ago, I guess it was maybe eight to 10 years ago, and we saw this rise of nationalism come into play.

We knew that something was coming, didn’t know exactly what it was, didn’t know it was going to be, you know, a, uh, an, an illness or a virus that attacked the world that caused these things to happen. But when that rise of nationalism happened, we realized, or at least those who were forward thinking, realize that this is going to be really bad.

Uh, for us, uh, because we’ve come, we, the world has always been interdependent, even though people have always tried to fight against it. Even though people have always tried to dominate and control and, and no one does it alone, no one does it alone. And honestly, much of what we’re seeing now, many of the problems that we’re seeing now is simply the result of a failure of leadership.

A failure of leadership and I’m not pointing fingers at anybody, but what I’m telling you is that the people who are in power in many instances, not in all, because we’ve seen countries. Where they’ve taken different approaches. We’ve seen areas and we’ve seen cities and we’ve seen states and we’ve seen providences where certain leaders have taken certain positions and we’ve seen their positions improve.

And we’ve seen the exact opposite happened too, where certain leaders have taken certain positions. And it’s a bismal in terms of the economy, in terms of the health of the people, in terms of the morale of the people that they purport to lead. So the truth is leadership matters. Leadership matters, and this turn to nationalism really has, um, really, I believe has caused so much death and destruction and loss during this time of pandemic. So.

Richard Streitz: Yeah. Now strong, strong leadership is definitely, um, it’s definitely key. And historically, I mean, you know, going back thousands of years, right? We’ve seen demonstrations of this play out, um, where nationalistic ideas, uh, um, fester and, uh, and caused a decline of, of, of, uh, of countries and civilizations.

Uh, again, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting how we just continuously, repeat a trend over and over and over again. But, uh, again, that’s just inherently hardwired into how we think as a species, I guess. Um, and, uh, yeah, we always like to think that we can plan and be better, um, with, with the future. But it’s interesting, but also.

David Pérez: And we can.

Richard Streitz: And we can, and we can, and we will,

David Pérez: It is a possibility we just need to do better in education. We need to do better in making sure that everyone has opportunities. And I’m sure that if things happen again, they will be better. We will be better prepared.

Richard Streitz: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s interesting.

David Pérez: Go ahead.

Richard Streitz: Oh, I was just going to say, I think it’s interesting our conversation has gone complete in, in regard to sort of the micro with, with the, uh, with personal, um, and, and, and larger community and state and, and, and global, and I, you know, isolation really affects all of those different levels, us as individuals, us as communities, us as, as cities and states, us as countries. Um, and, uh, and really that’s what we are seeing and experiencing, um, throughout the world.

David Pérez: Yeah. And it is a great opportunity for us to spark the idea at least of change of ‘let’s work together to get out of this. All of us’. We can all do something for our neighbor. We can all do something for our neighboring countries.

We can all do something for the world to be better after this.

LaMondre Pough: Absolutely. I agree with that, David and, and, and I, I live on that hope. I do. It, it’s that hope that, that helps me to get up out of bed every morning. And it’s that hope that says, may, you know, you really need to wash your face. You need to get up and do something and be.

And the reason that I say that is because even with all the issues and even with all the problems that are going on, this is the first time in my life that I’ve seen people who don’t look like me. So many people who don’t look like me saying ‘Black Lives Matter’. This is the first time that I’ve, that, that I’ve experienced that in my lifetime.

And that gives me hope. Hearing young advocates and people standing up and saying, ‘you know what, this is not the world that we want. This is not the world that, that, that, that we want to live in’, recognizing that we make the world what it is that it is up to us to make that change. So there, is a tremendous amount of hope and I’m with you, David.

I know that things are going to be different. Tragedy in this situation would really be, if we don’t learn from this and we allow it to happen again, or we leave it like it is right now, but I believe, I believe that we are changing now. I don’t think that it’s going to change. I believe that we’re in the change, but I will tell you sometimes change is costly and sometimes change requires pain.

And I believe that’s a part of what we’re dealing with now.

Richard Streitz: Yeah. Well, transitions, transitions are, are are never easy. Um, and we’re certainly, like you say, that’s what we’re experiencing right now, but it is toward the better good. Absolutely. I firmly believe that as well.

LaMondre Pough: Yeah. And I don’t want to leave this for the cle…

I don’t want to leave this with a cliché, but the one thing that I do want to to say is that it is so true that united we stand and divided we fall and I think that’s where we are now.

Richard Streitz: Yeah. At so many levels. That’s a, it’s simple, it’s a simple truth.

David Pérez: It is a simple truth. So that’s everything we have time for it this week. Thanks for listening.

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