Guest: Rebecca Palpant Shimkets Guest Title: Associate Director
Date: May 24, 2017 Guest Company: The Carter Center
Debra Ruh: Hello, this is Debra Ruh and you’re listening to Human Potential At Work. Very important topic today. We’re going to talk about mental health awareness. May is Mental Health Awareness and so we thought the best way to talk about this would be to bring on Doug Foresta again. He often joins the program and he’s my producer.
We also are really blessed to have Rebecca Shimkets. She’s coming to us from the Carter Center. We’ve had the Carter Center on the program one time before with … Well, no, to be honest, we’ve had the Carter Center on twice, Rebecca. One time talking about the work that’s being done in the United Kingdom and also we were talking about democracy. Welcome to the program, Rebecca.
Rebecca S: Thank you so much, Debra and Doug. I appreciate this opportunity. It’s a privilege. This topic is so important. I’m very pleased that you’re taking the time this month to really focus in on an issue that impacts so many of your listeners.
Debra Ruh: Yeah, it really does. I know, Rebecca, what we’re going to do just to make it easier for you is Doug and I are going to go back and forth with some questions. I know that you have a personal story, some personal stories around this issue. I was just wondering if you wouldn’t mind sharing a little bit of why this is so important to you personally.
Rebecca S: Sure. For those of you listening and for this conversation mental health and mental illnesses are things that all of us have. We all have mental health. Sometimes we get sick. Some of us have chronic conditions. Then there are some very lucky people who don’t have a problem with mental health or mental illness I should say in their lifetime.
You know, mental illness is something that I have cared about for a very long time. I have had many friends, family members who have had experiences with this issue. For myself, it’s been a battle with depression off and on, mostly in my adult life, as well as some anxiety disorders resulting from that as well. It is personal for me.
It’s also a very professional body of work for me through the Carter Center Mental Health program. I have been a staff member at the Carter Center and in the mental health program for almost 15 years where we work to reduce the stigma around mental illnesses and build public awareness around these issues and work on public policy to ensure services and access to care for people experiencing mental health problems.
Debra Ruh: You know, it’s interesting, Rebecca, when you talk just about your journey and you noted that it was part of your adult life. I know that I have talked about my experience with depression and anxiety and I know that as you said mental health, illness, it comes and goes.
I know right now with Doug we’re celebrating the birth of his daughter Eleanor. I know, Doug, that must be causing all kind of amazing beauty and wonder and joy but stress in the household too. Our mental health can be fragile. It’s just such a powerful topic and destigmatizing it I think is one of the most important things that we can do. Go ahead, Doug.
Doug Foresta: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. This is Doug. Fortunately for the moment I do feel actually fairly stable as one can be for having a child in the last couple weeks. One of the things also that’s really interesting to me and I’m wondering if you can speak to this, Rebecca, is the prevalence of mental illness in the US population. How common is mental illness? I would include substance use disorders among the US population. Could you share that with us?
Rebecca S: Sure. Mental illnesses are incredible common in the US and really around the world. I think they’re far more common than what people realize because we simply don’t talk about it.
In fact, I have to be really honest with you, earlier when we were speaking in this conversation and I talked about having depression, having problems with anxiety, I found myself concerned about talking about it. Do I really speak that out? I’m a professional in the field. I work on stigma every day. I even feel it when I’m talking about it. Even more so for those who feel like they have to hide it, feel like they don’t understand what’s going on.
It’s important for everyone to understand that these are incredibly common illnesses. One in five adults here in the United States will experience a mental illness this year. Symptoms enough for a diagnosis. One in five. Then we also know that there’s a very significant number around 20 million people will deal with a substance use disorder this year as well. This has a huge toll on our society, on our families.
It’s very important to bring this out of the silence because once you can bring this into the open and start talking about it and people understand that this is something that we all deal with in some way, either ourselves or somebody close to us, we then can find solutions.
Doug Foresta: I know we’re going to talk about stigma in a little bit and sorry I’m jumping in here a second but I just had to add this in. You were talking about, Rebecca, that feeling of do I really share this? We’re going to talk about stigma. I’ll let Debra take that.
It’s just interesting because I’m a therapist myself and I’ve been in therapy as a patient. Not currently but certainly over 10 years of time in my adult life that I’ve been in therapy and found it tremendously helpful. It’s funny because even when I talk to some of my peers, behavioral health professionals, and I say, “Have you ever yourself been in therapy?” They’ll say there’s nothing wrong with it, it’s fine, and they go, “Oh, no, I would never do that. That’s for crazy people.” I think it’s interesting how even we can internalize that stigma.
Rebecca S: Yeah, in fact, the literature supports that one of the groups that can be more stigmatizing are behavioral health professionals.
Doug Foresta: We’re supposed to be “normal”.
Debra Ruh: Right, right. Whatever that means, right. Yeah, it is a shame and I know that at times when I’ve talked about it at first I thought, “Well, I’m not going to talk about it.” Then I think we have to talk about this because we have to prove that there are people that are still functioning in society, functioning very well, that have to walk these paths.
I actually have found that having a chronic depression and anxiety disorder for all of my life that it’s made me a stronger person. It’s made me a more empathetic person. I think they become, and maybe I’m just an internal optimist, but I think they become our strengths as well.
Rebecca S: Absolutely. I’d love to mention that through the Carter Center we award fellowships to journalists to do major projects on mental health and mental illnesses. This month one of our former Rosalynn Carter fellows, Andrea Peterson who was a health reporter at the Wall Street Journal for a very long time and now a contributor to the Wall Street Journal, just released her book On Edge around her battle with panic disorder and anxiety disorders.
She talks about in this book how having these issues and dealing with these symptoms and problems has actually helped her save her life more and [inaudible 00:08:53] more and that there are some assets to these problems. We know that too from Joshua Wolf Shenk’s book, also another former fellow, the book he wrote on Lincoln’s melancholy. It was because of Lincoln’s battle with depression that he was really able to lead this country during it’s darkest hour. He understood those demons and how to walk through it.
I don’t want to sound Pollyanna or like, “Oh, all of this is great” because these are very, very painful and difficult disorders but they can make you an even stronger person.
Debra Ruh: I agree. I agree. Well said. I know that we’re talking about this but why do you think, Rebecca, and Doug you might want to weigh in on this, but why are people still so uncomfortable to talk about it to their friends, their family and, oh my goodness, their employers?
Rebecca S: Sure. I’ll jump in and feel free to jump in, Doug. You know, it’s not just one thing. I think it’s a few things. A lot of it has to do with our perceptions of mental illness. If you think about it all of us had some form of this when we were growing up.
For me, living in southern Michigan as a child, if you were starting to misbehave or there was a fear you were going to misbehave some adult would say, “Well, we’re going to send you to Ypsilanti State Hospital.” Children live in fear like, “Oh my goodness. Ypsilanti …” These mystery and myths surround these mental hospitals were out there and to be feared. That’s just one small example.
There’s a lot of myths and misconceptions about these illnesses that lead to people being afraid of a label being slapped on them as crazy, as psycho, as somebody with one of these mental illnesses. There’s that fear too. Something else is there that I don’t think we talk about enough. That is even when people get past some of these other myths and misconceptions I think there’s also this general fear of it’s a moral failure.
Debra Ruh: So true.
Rebecca S: “If I were a stronger person, if I believed God could heal me more, and was more in control of my life, I wouldn’t be depressed. I wouldn’t have panic problems.” That’s simply not true. These are health conditions. It’s very complex but all of these working together create a scenario where people back away and say, “I can’t tell anybody” and they suffer in silence when they don’t have to.
Debra Ruh: Yeah, well said, Rebecca. Doug, do you want to weigh in here?
Doug Foresta: Yeah, I think it’s a good segue into the next thing which is about stigma. Perhaps we could just define stigma and then I definitely have some more thoughts about this. I think we’re kind of moving our way around this. Rebecca, can you say a little bit about what you see stigma as when it comes to mental health?
Rebecca S: Sure, stigma as defined by the literature and experts in the field is really a mark of shame, a label, that’s placed on somebody by somebody outside of themselves but there also can be some self-stigma as well. I think I want to say two things about stigma that are really important for people to understand.
The first is I don’t think you can talk about stigma without speaking about discrimination. Discrimination is the end stage of stigma. It includes the behaviors around stigma. You have this label, you have this mark of shame, but it results in very tangible problems for people. Like a lack of access to housing, employment challenges, structural forms of discrimination like public policies that make it difficult for people to get services or reimbursement for services. I just want to make sure that we really get at that piece that we can change, that we can impact, and that’s discrimination.
In addition, I think we need to recognize too that there are a lot of people here in the United States who really don’t like the word stigma being associated with mental illnesses or mental health problems because it is very negative and there’s this fear that we’re placing even more negativity on somebody who is already dealing with enough challenges.
They’re much more interested in talking about how do we build social inclusion? How do we build a world where we can speak openly and honestly, all are included, and we all try to live the best lives that we can? I think in my view we have to call it what it is. It is stigma, it is there but with those two things in mind.
Doug Foresta: Yeah, I think that’s really great. I was going to bring that up about so there’s the stigma and then there’s the piece about the self-stigma. Then there’s also, like you said, discrimination and the reality is that if you’re trying to get something like life insurance or you’re trying to get a quote for if you’re self-employed and you want to get health insurance and depending on your situation there are some real consequences to identifying as somebody who has had a mental health disorder.
I know that, for example, one of my relatives works for the Department of Defense and he’s had depression forever. He had a really hard time … He has a really high security clearance. If he suffers in silence he’ll keep his security clearance but if he goes to get help, which would be the healthier thing to do, he could potentially lose his security clearance.
You punish people and somehow that’s supposed to keep us safer that somehow you’re just a class above and you’re supposed to just suffer with it. Like you said, there’s some policy changes I think that we have to look at as well if we’re going to talk about stigma.
Debra Ruh: I agree. I agree. You know, one thing that I’ve heard, I don’t know if it’s true but I’ve heard that more Americans are depressed and have mental health disorders than other countries. I don’t know if that’s true. I would be curious if either of you know that.
Also, a question we’re already talking about this a little bit but what are the impacts or health consequences of unrecognized and under-treated mental illnesses, which of course I can think of some really awful stories. Let me turn that over to you, Rebecca. Then Doug if you want to weigh in that would be helpful.
Rebecca S: You know, we know that a stigma is alive and well around the world. Through our work at the Carter Center we have the opportunity to interact with a lot of people working on these issues in countries like Australia, like England, and Canada and even work we’re doing in Liberia, Africa, around stigma reduction.
We know that this is a worldwide problem. How it plays out can be different in different cultures. It is a worldwide problem. We also know from the World Health Organization that depression is a global problem. In fact, the World Health Organization has said by 2020 depression will be the second leading cause of disability in the world.
Debra Ruh: Wow. Wow.
Rebecca S: With an enormous burden on countries, on employers, on society and so just a few things to think about. There’s a lot of different ways it impacts our communities and our employers. First of all, kind of at the workplace level which I think is something that you all do a lot of thinking about.
There are things like absenteeism with employees because of depression or because of a manic episode. There’s also presenteeism where people show up for work but they have a really difficult time actually settling in and doing their job. Both of those things are pretty significant problems.
Here in the United States, for example, the absenteeism problem is about 200 million working days are impacted due to lost productivity to the cost of about $17 to $44 billion. It’s really important for employers to think about how to address these issues, how to help their employees get out in front of some of these challenges instead of not asking for help, letting things fester, symptoms become worse, and then you have an even bigger problem.
A bigger problem would be something like the real problem we have here in the United States with suicide, which not all suicides are related to mental health conditions but the vast majority of them have a mental illness component to them. About 30,000 Americans die by suicide each year. 30,000. To help people put this in perspective, around 40,000 American women die from breast cancer each year. I think we have to start elevating this discussion to the levels that we elevate other public health conditions. That’s why silence not only is it damaging but it can be deadly.
Doug Foresta: I think it goes back to that piece you said about the morality piece. I still think that we have this underlying, unstated notion … If our neighbor said, “Oh my God. I just found out that my liver is failing me” or, “I have heart disease” or something like that we probably wouldn’t say to them, “Well, why don’t you just buck up and get stronger?” Why don’t you just make your heart stronger? Just do that.
Yet, I think that there’s still some way in which we either don’t see mental illness as a real illness or we see it as something that … I’m curious about your thoughts about this, Rebecca, if you get the sense that there’s this unsaid piece about, “If you just tried hard enough you could fix that thing”?
Rebecca S: I get it. I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier about the moral issue. That a lot of people do think about mental illnesses as more of a spiritual or a moral problem. That’s why a lot of the work that we’ve been doing at the Carter Center, Mrs. Carter has really been focused on this, is really starting to change this conversation from just mental illness/mental health conversation to more of a public health/population health conversation.
Helping frame it that this is a health issue and ways that we can do this is by encouraging the integration of mental health services into primary care. Primary care doctors are on the front lines of dealing with mental illnesses. So many cases of depression and anxiety disorders are diagnosed and treated in a primary care physician’s office but helping people begin to reframe this and rethink about it as this is a health issue just like my other health issues. I need to go for my mammogram, I need to go for my well visit. This is a part of my well visit. How am I doing in some of the areas that might be exhibiting depressive symptoms or symptoms of anxiety?
Of course, I want to make sure that we don’t just talk about mental illness in terms of those illnesses. There are many mental illnesses that impact a lot of people. Illnesses that are more chronic conditions that can be very difficult like Schizophrenia, like bipolar disorder. The exciting news that we have today that Mrs. Carter couldn’t say when she started her work 45 years ago, early in her public life, is the vast majority of people, even with serious mental illnesses, when treated can recover. They can live recovering lives in the community. They can have relationships, they can have a meaningful career, they can raise children. These disorders and these illnesses do not have to cripple your life.
Doug Foresta: Right. Or define you, right? That’s the other thing.
Rebecca S: Exactly.
Doug Foresta: You may have bipolar disorder but it doesn’t mean that you are bipolar disorder.
Rebecca S: Absolutely. That is something … As I mentioned just a bit ago, we work with the media a lot around these issues. The Rosalynn Carter Fellowships for Mental Health Journalism was started 20 years ago. Mrs. Carter and those of us at the Carter Center have really focused on how do we help journalists tell these stories? How do we help them frame mental health and mental illnesses in ways that aren’t stigmatizing, that tell the whole story about mental health, and that is exactly one of the things that we talk about. Illnesses do not define you.
One of the things that journalists can do, but each one of us can do, is change the way we talk about mental illness. For example, “He is Schizophrenic” is never something we should say because Schizophrenia does not define the person. We use person first language instead like, “He has Schizophrenia”. For some reason it’s okay in our society to define people by their mental illness when we would never do that with other illnesses. Would we ever say, “He is cancerous”?
Doug Foresta: Right.
Debra Ruh: Right, right, right.
Rebecca S: Not in a million years but for some reason it’s okay if he has Schizophrenia to change it. Just little things like that help people understand you’re a person first. We all have things in our lives that challenge us, that make some of our days more difficult but it doesn’t change that we are a person.
We all want the same things. We want to be loved. We want to date on Friday night. We want a meaningful career, whatever that might be, whether it’s raising your children or working in your religious community. That’s who we are. These other things kind of come along with us.
Doug Foresta: Debra, isn’t that exactly like your whole life’s work?
Debra Ruh: I know. I was thinking, “I think she’s my sister that I just am reconnecting with.” It’s amazing. We agree. We always say … It’s interesting because we say the disability community but the reality is the human community because we are made up of so many different parts and parcels.
My mother has always had a mental health illness, borderline personality disorder, and when you were talking about the diagnoses are happening at the front lines with your doctor I remember my doctor … I went in to see my doctor and she knew my mom. I was talking about different things and she said, “I think we really need to talk about putting you on some medication for depression and anxiety.” I said, “No, no, no. I’m fine. I’m managing it. I’m doing this, I’m doing that.”
She said, “I think you’re spending a lot of your time managing it, Debra.” I just thought that was an interesting way to put it. The parallels and the understanding that … Why did I come out and disclose? Why did you disclose, Rebecca? I think that sometimes people look at us and say, “Oh, they’re successful” so if we don’t have the courage to come out and say, “I have a lot of different parts to me …”
Doug and I have had a lot of these conversations but my daughter, my daughter was born with blond hair and hazel eyes and a certain weight. She also was born with an extra chromosome, trisomy 21. She doesn’t want to just be defined by Down Syndrome. She wants to be defined as a complex individual. She also struggles like I do with depression.
It’s so interesting. I went in her room the other day and she was crying. I’m like, “Why are you crying?” She’s like, “Because I’m sad.” I was like, “I don’t want you to be sad.” It’s interesting how much this touches all of us and continues to remind us that we are human beings and this is part of the human experience.
Rebecca, I don’t know if you know this but I’m curious and I’m going off the script a little but but why, why did our amazing First Lady, Rosalynn Carter, why does she care about this? There must have been something that triggered it. Both President Jimmy Carter and Rosalynn Carter are amazing, wonderful people that have contributed so much to society. I’m so grateful. I’m just always curious about what took her to this journey.
Rebecca S: Absolutely. She’s just one of the most genuine, warm, and caring people I’ve met. That really came through on the campaign trail when they were campaigning for governor of Georgia way back in the late 1960s. She talks about one morning, very early in the morning, four or five am, Mrs. Carter was at the gate of a cotton factory in Atlanta, Georgia. The overnight shift was letting out and she was passing out campaign pamphlets as you do when you’re campaigning.
A woman came out, she had been working all night, was wearing a black wool coat but had cotton all over it. Mrs. Carter handed her a pamphlet and said, “I hope you can go home and get some rest. You’ve been working all night.” She said, “I wish I could. I can’t. My daughter has a mental illness and my husband has been with her all night. I’m going home to relieve him so he can go work his job. I’m going to take care of her during the day.”
This is 45 plus years later and Mrs. Carter still tells the story as if it happened yesterday. It’s so impacted her that a family is incredibly impacted by these issues, serious mental illness. There are very few services available. As she toured the state what was happening at that time was deinstitutionalization, which in theory was a great concept. What’s incredibly important is that when you deinstitutionalize you need a spectrum of services available for people and their families to be served in the community at all levels of care. That wasn’t happening.
As she toured the state, people would come up to her at the campaign rallies and say, “When your husband is governor what are you going to do for my son with bipolar disorder?” Manic depression at that time. Or, “My son with Schizophrenia?” She was so burdened because she realized nobody talked about this. Nobody would.
When President Carter became governor of Georgia she said, “You know what? This is my issue. I am going to talk about this.” She has committed her public life to this issue ever since.
Debra Ruh: Which is a beautiful story.
Doug Foresta: Yeah, I want to make sure actually before we wrap up our time here today that our listeners understand. You’ve talked a little bit about some of the work that the Carter Center does to reduce stigma in mental health but maybe can you say a bit more about some of the different efforts that you make? I just want to make sure that our listeners understand the types of efforts that you engage in at the Carter Center.
Rebecca S: Sure. When Mrs. Carter and President Carter were in the White House, Mrs. Carter had a President’s Commission on mental health and really developed a plan for this country and really wanted to put some strong public policies in place to take this issue to the next level in the country.
When they left the White House she wanted to continue this work and developed the Carter Center Mental Health Program that’s been in existence ever since. Her work on mental health and media is well-recognized. In addition, we work on public policy. For over 30 years there was an annual symposium on mental health policy held at the Carter Center each year.
We do a state version of that meeting as well where we take a very specific topic selected by experts to really dig in and see what needs to happen in the field that we should push for, where together if we can get the top leaders together to agree.
We work on those areas. In a lot of ways some of the work that we do is behind the scenes. Educating, raising awareness given the platform that we have. Most recently, much like most of the other Carter Center programs we work internationally as well. The mental health program has just an exciting initiative in the country of Liberia, Africa where we are taking a three pronged approach in addressing mental health problems in that country by implementing a national mental health policy, training up mental health workers that are now deployed in every county in Liberia to help diagnose and treat mental illnesses in the community. We have a strong public education and anti-stigma campaign using resources that Liberians know and trust to talk about these issues.
Debra Ruh: Wow. That’s so powerful. What are some tips that y’all have learned from the work that you’re doing? Do you have any tips? I know I love that you’re working with journalists. I think that’s so smart because they’re the ones that are telling the stories.
Rebecca S: I think it’s important. Back when Mrs. Carter and her mental health taskforce and a group of experts came together and started looking at this issue of stigma they said, “Where do people get their information? How can we help change the way they think about this?” Somebody said, “Well, they get it through the media.”
Instead of pointing our figures at everything that’s wrong we need to partner together and help journalists be what they want to be. That’s incredible journalists doing great work. That’s why we developed this year-long fellowship program which is now awarded 181 journalists and over 1500 media mental health pieces have been done by these journalists, either during their fellowship year or after. We’re in the process of building the program in the countries of Colombia, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates. We’ve successfully built these programs in New Zealand, South Africa, and worked in Romania as well.
I think one of the successes of this work and this isn’t unique to the mental health program at the Carter Center but with really all of the programs that the Carter Center is we work through partnerships. We don’t have to go it alone and act independently and then try to take all the credit for it. Our goal is how do we empower people? How do we empower communities? How do we partner with them? Provide them with resources so with the ultimate goal of they’re going to be able to do this work on their own when we leave.
I think that’s really something that most anyone or any organization can really think about is if you don’t have to take all the credit what could you do to really empower those within your network, those within your circle, to elevate something to a higher level?
Debra Ruh: Beautiful words. Beautiful words, Rebecca.
Doug Foresta: I guess the last thing I would ask is just about are you optimistic about the future of mental health reporting in the media? If so, why?
Rebecca S: Well, first of all, when we started … I say, we. When the Carter Center started this work 20 years ago the media landscape was very different. There wasn’t social media, there was not online media [crosstalk 00:36:37]
Doug Foresta: We couldn’t be doing this right now.
Debra Ruh: Yeah, the fake news.
Rebecca S: With that, has come enormous opportunities. Enormous. People have access to information 24/7 and literally at their fingertips. With that comes enormous challenges. Where we are seeing progress is more and more people are doing exactly what we did at the beginning of this podcast and they’re breaking the silence and they’re talking about it.
We’re seeing this more and more. I think this is possible because recovery is a possibility for everyone now. We have treatments that are available. We know from the research that the vast majority of Americans believe that treatment can be effective and that treatments can work.
I think that’s really great news. There are a lot of organizations. Many of them we partner with or we have a lot of conversations. I love to think about the work that the First Lady of New York City is doing with her work in Thrive. Michelle Obama did work in this area with actress Glenn Close with Bring Change to Mind and on and on along with the Royal Family in England. It’s really an issue that is catching fire.
I think where we’re having some challenges, though, we really need to work together on and a big piece of the solution with this is media is around this whole misconception that people with mental illnesses are impulsive and violent. A lot of that has to do with the sensational headlines around some of these rare but certainly dramatic violent events that occur like school shootings.
In a lot of ways for those of us doing this work it feels like when an incident like that occurs we go back so many steps with the progress made. What’s really important is that we continue to work with journalists to help them reframe these events. Number one, always, be a journalist. Ask the tough questions. Do the work and report what you see. Number one.
Two, tell the stories of recovery. We have a media guide at the Carter Center, resource guide for behavioral health reporting, and these are some of the things that we talk about with journalists. One of the best sources you can have in talking about mental health is somebody with a lived experience of mental illness.
For too long a lot of media stories didn’t use somebody with experiences and expert. They could be an expert in an issue like bipolar disorder. Another thing is we need to help them understand that really around 3% of people with serious mental illnesses are violent.
The vast majority of people who live with these conditions every day, who may have an episode with these, will never be violent. Typically, in that 3% there are a host of other things going on that are stronger contributors to violence than the mental illness.
We’ve really go to get our hands around this issue. I certainly don’t want to end by talking about that but I think we’ve made a lot of progress but let’s get to work on this issue.
Debra Ruh: Well, said, Rebecca. Well said. Well, thank you so very much for being on the program. It’s just such important work that you are doing at the Carter Center and we applaud your efforts. That’s why we keep having more people from the Carter Center because we’re just so impressed with what you’re doing. Thank you so much, Rebecca.
Rebecca S: Well, I appreciate you having me on the program and I appreciate both of you, Debra and Doug, for your commitment to having open and honest conversations about issues that impact our society and I think we’re a better community because of what you’re doing so thank you.
Debra Ruh: Thank you, Rebecca, and thank you, Doug. Thanks to our audience for listening. We love our comments so let us know what you’re thinking. We applaud Rebecca and the Carter Center and First Lady Rosalynn Carter and President Jimmy Carter. Thank you so much.
Doug Foresta: You’ve been listening to Human Potential At Work with Debra Ruh. To learn more about Debra and how she can help your organization, visit Ruh Global dot com. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and you want to make sure that you don’t miss any future episodes go to iTunes and subscribe to the podcast Human Potential At Work. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back next week with a new episode.
You’ve been listening to Human Potential at Work with Debra Ruh. To learn more about Debra and how she can help your organization visit RuhGlobal.com. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and you want to make sure that you don’t miss any future epsiodes, go to itunes and subscribe to Human Potential at Work. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back next week with a new episode.