Guest: Stefan Tromel Guest Title: Senior Disability Specialist
Date: June 7, 2017 Guest Company: International Labour Organization (ILO)
[Intro music]
Debra Ruh: Hello everybody. Welcome to Human Potential At Work. I’m really excited today to feature somebody that’s become a good friend. Stefan Tromel who is from the International Labor Organization and he’s joining us live from Geneva. So welcome to the program, Stefan.
Stefan Tromel: Thanks a lot Debra for having me.
Debra Ruh: Yes, we are excited. I really believe that it’s very important to have global conversations, and so I was really excited about having you on the program and I want to talk a little bit about what you’re doing, why are you doing it, and also I want to talk about the events that you are going to be hosting in the United States on June 20th in Washington D.C., Stefan. So, welcome again to the program.
Stefan Tromel: Thank you.
Debra Ruh: So, Stefan before we go too much into … Before we start talking about the business of the International Labor Organization, will you tell us a little bit why you personally are involved in making sure that people with disabilities have equal rights and full access to everything everyone else has in society?
Stefan Tromel: Sure, well, It’s dates back a lot of time. I’ve worked in this area since 1989. So it’s a long, many years ago. I started to work on it in Spain, in my home country, working for the largest Spanish Cross disability foundation and from the outset employment was one of our big priorities because it was at this stage … at that stage but it continues to be at this stage still one of the major challenges faced by people with disabilities in Spain, and I think, throughout the world. To find a job. To find a decent job.
Debra Ruh: Right, right, right.
Stefan Tromel: It was quite natural for that organization employment and accessibility were like the two big priorities and I specialized in the area of employment. I then also worked for a number of years at European Union level working as director of the most, of the umbrella organization representing people with disabilities together with the European Union. And later on I was also very much involved in the negotiation process of the UN Convention on the Rights of People.
Debra Ruh: Yeah, and the UN Convention on the Rights on People with Disabilities I think is one of the most important legislations, or treaties, I should say, you know, that I think that’s come out. Obviously I’m very passionate about inclusion of people with disabilities so, I thank you for your work.
And, so, tell us more about the … First of all will you tell us more about the International Labor Organization because I find many of my friends in the United States they’re not really sure what the ILO does and how I couch it, just a, is I said well think about in the United States like our Department of Labor, our government Department of Labor. So, but, why don’t you give a better explanation than that one.
Stefan Tromel: Well, the International Labor Organization, ILO the acronym, is the in United Nations family of organizations. Is the specializes agency in the area of employment and social protection. No? So, for instance, you have the World Health Organization meeting on issues of health. You have the UN High Commission for Refugees working on our refugees. You have UNICEF, everybody knows UNICEF.
The ILO is also … Is, we are in fact one of the oldest agencies. We’re going to celebrate our 100th anniversary in 2019.
Debra Ruh: Wow
Stefan Tromel: So we were made just immediately after the First World War basically as an organization to promote social justice with the idea that, in a world where there is more social justice there … It would be less likely that there would be a war, or conflict. I’m not sure we’ve been successful very much in that but it’s a very important organization.
One of our distinctive features compared to other UN agencies is that we are, our governing structure does not only include governments. In the case of US it’s in fact it’s US DOLE representing the US in the ILO, but it’s also the main employer federation and trade union. Also, it’s … We have a tripartite composition of our governing structure, which tries to reflect our strong believes that the best ways through which to promote changes in the Labor Market is by achieving consensus between governments, employers, and workers.
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: So that’s the nutshell what the ILO is and within that organization I have the role of the Senior Disabilities Specialist and I’m trying, basically … We have, we do, disability specific initiatives like the one on the Global Network that we will speak in a minute but it’s also we have to have a role to try to mainstream disability issues of, of the issue of peoples that varies throughout of the ILO in areas like youth employment, occupational health and safety, green jobs, and we’ve now very strong, important, focus also on the issue of the future of the world of work. And of course we need to see how that future of the world of work also affects people with disabilities.
Debra Ruh: Right, right, I agree, and one thing that the ILO did a few years ago, and I’ll let you give us the exact year, was created a Global Business Disability Network. And I remember attending a meeting years ago in the United States. The Honorable Judy Heuwmann did that at our Department of State, and I remember thinking oh, that’s a really, really good idea and then you took over the leadership of that organization a few years ago and I’ve been really, really fascinated watching the progress.
Say, from just watching from the outside looking in you appear to have made quite a bit of progress. There’s a lot of multi-national corporations involved in the organization and I think it’s very exciting because I, and I know that you agree with me, this is a global conversation. So, would you tell us a little bit more about the Global Business Disability Network and, you know, where it’s come from and really, the, your future expectations and hopes for the organization? The Network?
Stefan Tromel: Sure, sure. As you were saying it was established back in 2011. The way in which it started basically my predecessor organized a number of region meetings to which she invited global companies, regional companies, which we knew that they had some experience in the area of disability inclusion. And the idea behind the network was that it seemed an added value to create a network, which would allow these companies that are committed to disability inclusion to create a platform, and employer-led platform, which would allow them to exchange good practices on how to promote workplaces that are inclusive of people with disabilities. And that’s the way it started.
I think what is different from this network is that there is a shared vision among the (shushing noises) members of the network. The members are global companies that have presence in many countries of the world. We also have supported the establishment and strengthening of national business and disability networks, which bring together both local companies as well as branches of these global companies.
And these national networks will help them to promote employment of people with disabilities in their specific country context because of course it’s not the same situation to promote in Spain or in the US than it is in Egypt or Zambia. You know that the need to be … Different nations to take into account and therefore these country specific networks are definitely extremely important.
Also, for global companies, in order to make sure that they are not only disability inclusive in the countries where they have the headquarters where perhaps it’s easier to promote employment but also in all the other countries in which they are present. So, it’s an employer-led network. We provide, as ILO, we provide the secretariats to benefit but we really try to ensure that the work priorities are decided by our members.
In 2015, and in fact the following, a request from the steering committee of the network we started to draft a charter, a global charter, on business and disability, which was launched in October 2015. And already, then we had 11 of our global companies endorsing that charter at the level of their CEO, which we think is important because we really think that (whisper) that throughout that top level commitment is a key element to ensure that disability inclusion becomes an issue that is taken account throughout the organization.
So we have that charter since 2015. In 2016, we had six other organizations, 300, 600 global companies signing up to the charter and we’re currently working with we have another four or five companies that will be signing the charter in October 2017, which is when we have our annual meeting, which we always use for, let’s say, making publicity PR around the new companies endorsing the charter.
Debra Ruh: And where is that meeting going to be in October?
Stefan Tromel: Yes, so far, these annual meetings we’ve always been holding them here in Geneva, in the headquarters of the International Labor Organization.
Debra Ruh: Right, which makes sense. Well, I know that you’re going to have an event and I’ve been working with you to get the US corporations invited but, tell us more about the event that you’re going to have and also the USCIB that is joining you in the event in Washington D.C. on June 20th.
Stefan Tromel: Sure, the event in Washington D.C., currently hosted by AT&T, is the first event we are holding specifically in the US trying to reach out to all US companies that are committed to disability inclusion but also in particular to those US companies that perhaps have a good disability inclusion policy in the US but have not yet been able to implement that policy in the same way throughout their global presence. It’s really there, where, I think at least, that we have an added value that we can provides complimenting the work, or the support that US companies can already get from the different US business and disability networks that already exist. I think we can support them also in the US, there’s always the exchange of information and practices between US companies and other global companies is always interesting.
But I think it’s in particular the support we can provide to help US companies to implement disability inclusion policies throughout their global presence. I think that’s where we have our main added value. And I think one of the messages we are bringing, also to the US global companies, is that thanks to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People With Disabilities, thanks to the 2013 development agenda, the expectations from society, from companies, from the private sector on disability are changing radically. And in particular in the development countries the society expects all the foreign companies to include them, to give a leading example, in the area of disability inclusion.
The laws are changing. The policies are changing. All this, thanks to the impact of the UN Convention and also to the fact that the 2013 development agenda, the new framework in which we’re, all countries are operating to combat poverty, to combat climate change, and all that, also makes explicit references to people with disabilities also in the specific goal that leads to product. So in general, what they’re trying to say basically is there much more attention to persons with disabilities in throughout the world right now. And it’s in the interest of companies to be proactively reaching out, and be seen as everybody as part of the solution[crosstalk 00:12:41]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: To the inclusion of people with disabilities throughout the world and humbly said we think that as an ILO global network we can help companies to address that challenge.
Debra Ruh: And I agree, and I’m going to ask you one question before we talk a little bit more about your other partner, the USCIB, but why do you think Stefan, that business to business conversations are important and certainly from the lens of global business to business? Why is that important for multinationals and even national companies?
Stefan Tromel: Well I think the, to some extent the reason why we were, let me give an answer that is perhaps a bit selfish from the ILO perspective. But you could also ask me why is the ILO investing so much energy in such global and international networks. But because we have learned that the best way to engage, to convince private sector that is not yet on board with disability inclusion is when they listen to other companies[crosstalk 00:13:43]
Debra Ruh: Right, I see.
Stefan Tromel: When they heed the reasons why other companies are doing that. Which is not just fully compliance, needed compliance is important, it’s definitely not for charity, it’s because the companies that are part of our network they have a common vision of the business advantages that are related to the employment of people’s experiences. It’s about employing people with disabilities for the same reasons they are employing other employees, because they bring talent. It’s part of the diversity of workforce and more and more large companies in particular are realizing that the diversity of the workforce is one of the key elements to ensure competitiveness and sustainability so we’d better prepared to respond to the needs of the diverse market.
So all these elements are, seem to all make sense but if those points are put forward by the ILO, or by government financial they are might not have the same impact as when these same points are put forward by top-level executives of the private sector. So it’s really this private sector to private sector support and persuasion that is really driving, making the progress. And we see ourselves very much as the facilitator of that business to business dialogue. I think companies appreciate to have a safe space where they can experience, where they go to share the experience of things that have not worked perhaps immediately as well as initially planned. So why we also fully support the existence of multi-stake holder platforms we also think that these employer led initiatives are particularly well received by the private sector and really can play a key role in driving things forward.
Debra Ruh: I agree. I agree and I’ve also heard. Often businesses tell me they’re so many questions I have and I’m afraid to ask the questions because I don’t wanna jepord- … You know in the United States we’re very litigious, that’s just part of who we are, and often they’re afraid to ask the questions about the risks and what about this, and can I do this, and they don’t want … Not only do they not want to look stupid by asking a bad question, even though no stupid question can be asked, but also they’re afraid that they might accidentally put the corporation at risk if they ask the wrong things, or do the wrong things.
So I agree with you, having a network where these business corporation can share lessons learned: Oh, I thought for sure if I did it this way, that was the way to do it, and then you realize, oh, well, really if I do it this way it works better for the employee, better for the teams, all of these different things. So I think it’s very important that businesses come together with these global conversation to talk about their successes, their failures, you know, what they could learn from each other, how they could support each other. It’s also good networking for these corporations. Good for them to talk together and to open up relationships with each other in some cases.
So, well tell us about the USCIB because I know they are joining the ILO, along with, and special thanks to AT&T for hosting this event at the AT&T Forum, which I toured and it’s lovely. What an amazing spot. But, tell us about the relationship with USCIB and why are they joining the summit?
Stefan Tromel: Sure, it’s a, you will remember that I mentioned that each country is represented in the ILO both by the government, usually the Ministry of Labor, or the Head of the US DOLE, but also employer federation, and a trade union. Now in the case of the US the employers are represented in the ILO by the USCIB, US Council of International Business, which is the coming together of large US companies that are interested to be part of global conversations within the ILO, within the OSED, and all that.
And the USCIB has been a very important partner of the ILO Global Business Disability Network because their representative in the ILO governing body, Ronnie Goldberg, has been a member of the steering committee of the network from the beginning. So it has provided a very important, let’s say maximum employer angle and view of this, so it was very great that we could get them be our key partner in the event and they were also instrumental in getting the support from AT&T to host the event. AT&T is one of these large US companies that is a member of the USCIB.
Debra Ruh: Yes, and I’ll tell you, special kudos to AT&T because in the United States they’ve been a big leader. They have really focused on accessibility and disability inclusion and they’ve been marketing their efforts in ways that, quite frankly, other brands haven’t done so they are really leading in the United States on true disability inclusion in a very empowering way. So, I was really excited to see AT&T take on this leadership role to make sure that US corporations can join these global conversations.
So, I know that we already have about 30, 30-35 corporations that will be attending the events in Washington D.C. on June 20th. And how can companies, if a corporations, well … So, I’m going to ask you a couple of questions. If a corporation wants to join this is this only for large corporations or is this for different size corporations? And also, what if I’m a national disability person’s organization, like a, you know, NBDC, or a USVLN, or AAR … you know AAPD, we have a lot. We’re a big country. What … How can they get involved? But first of all, let you ask the corporation question. Is it just for large corporations? Is it just for global conversations, corporations, for instance? I mean.
Stefan Tromel: Not closed to smaller companies but we also think that we can provide, in particular, and added value to global companies [crosstalk 00:20:04]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: For the reasons I mentioned.
Debra Ruh: Right, right.
Stefan Tromel: I think that we’re supporting local companies in other countries through these national business and disability networks that we’ve had to establish, and of course we are linking them up with a global network in order to allow through the global network for these national initiatives to be able to present their work to a global audience, to benefit from the tools that we are working, to be part of any working group or process of production of new tools. But to some extent, let’s say for a company that has more like a local market[crosstalk 00:20:41]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: We would see that they would be more interested in being part of our global network through a national network like those that already exist in the[crosstalk 00:20:50]
Debra Ruh: Right, right.
Stefan Tromel: And to some extent the same applies also with disability organizations. Each of these disability, the national person of disability networks they are all different forms and shapes. Most of them involve, in one way or the other, sometimes as members, sometimes as observers or advisors, they involve disability organizations, but in particular disability organizations that understand the language of business[crosstalk 00:21:18]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: They know how to become an effective partner of business and unfortunately, and it comes from the world of disability organization that is not always the case. Many disability organizations are very effective in focusing work towards governments, and that’s a very important role, but are not yet always prepared to be an effective partner of business and we also[crosstalk 00:21:38]
Debra Ruh: I agree
Stefan Tromel: Are trying to work with that. I would also like to highlight Debra, that the International Disability Alliance, which is the main umbrella organization promoting the rights of people with disabilities. They were instrumental in getting explicit references to people with disabilities and the 2013 development agenda. They were, their members were active, very actively involved in the negotiation process of the UN Convention. The International Disability Alliance is a member of the steering committee of the global network since it was established. And also it’s a clear message that of course we fully understand the very important slogan of “Nothing about us without us”[crosstalk 00:22:15]
Debra Ruh: Correct
Stefan Tromel: Nothing about people who wrote this, without people experience, but at the same time I think all is fair to say the International Disability Alliance has been very good partner, because they’ve also understood that there was also a need for creating a safe space of sort to say for global companies to be able so share information in a genuine and open way.
Debra Ruh: They what … I remember one time I was interviewing you on AXSCHAT, A-X-S-CHAT, and if any of our viewers want to go out, we still have that video on xxx.axschat.com and you can watch the video interview that Neil Antonio and myself died with Stefan if you want learn more. But you were talking about some of the bi-products that were coming out of this Global Business Disability Network and I’m gonna give you, I’ll remind you what I’m talking about.
I’ll give you an example. There was an United States corporation that was very committed to including people with disabilities and they’ve done a good job. And they were actually going to, they had moved over to have offices in the United Kingdom and they just did not know where to begin. And they came to me and they said Debra, I don’t even, they’re using language like instead of in the US we’re saying accommodations in the UK they are using adaptions, which we think it means the same thing, they have different laws, and they didn’t even know where to begin.
And so what I did, I said, the first thing I’d recommend is that you talk to Stefan at the ILO because that’s a perfect example of how when you’re expanding into other countries, or like you said, you have US policy, you’re doing great things but you really want to be a … You are a global brand and you want to go into other countries. I thought it was very interesting some of the conversations.
I’ve been to some of the events that y’all have had. I went to the one in Geneva and it was very interesting watching the corporations really support each other, and competitors standing toe to toe and just saying, no, no, this is how we do it and sharing data and information that I normally would not see. So it really inspired me. But some of the work that y’all have done is allowing these global corporations that are doing, pretty good jobs, always lots of work to do in the US or in the developed countries, really reaching out and supporting other countries.
And I know that one of the speakers that you’ve invited to speak at the ILO is Sysco and Sysco is doing some really, really interesting things. And they’re going to talk about a program where they hired a team of people in Bangladesh that were blind and they were stunned at the difference in the productivity between this team of people that were blind and their counterparts. They were stunned. A 200% was mentioned to me, and I was like, oh, I’ve got to have that story, so I’m looking forward to hearing that story at the June 20th event.
But, tell us more about things like that, that are coming out that I think sometimes in the US maybe we’re not thinking about how we can help the rest of the world with the efforts we are making here.
Stefan Tromel: Yeah, that’s a very good point. Well I think the key issue to remember is going back to the initial words, which you just said, which is I think it’s important that companies that try to promote disability inclusion in a different country context, that we help them to know where they have to go.
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: These national networks on one hand they help companies to speak to other companies who perhaps already are there and have already, sort of, overcome some of the specific challenges that you might find in a specific country context. They might be aware of the legislation. But more importantly, because we really think that the logic of disability inclusion works independently of what the legislation says[crosstalk 00:26:17]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: Where do we find, the main question we very often get is where do we find people with disabilities that have the right skills.
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: They’re clearing saying to govern, to companies, when you should employ for the same reasons you should employ anybody else, which means you are employing people because of their skills and their talents. Now, it’s fair to say, that in certain country contexts it is more difficult to find these people because the education system has failed, vocation training is not delivering, the public employment services don’t work, but it’s still possible.
It’s just more difficult because there are not so many places where you can go to find that. And sometimes it means a bit of going out of your way, so to say, to make an extra effort to identify who are the partners including disability organizations that can help you address these challenges, no? That can tell you where to go. Of course, they can also give you a bit of guidance in terms of sensitivity around terminology. Well all know that terminology in the areas of disability has been evolving in all our countries[crosstalk 00:27:25]
Debra Ruh: Right.
Stefan Tromel: So you go to a new context, even if, perhaps is the same language, terminology is used differently just compare the UK and the US. Terminology is not exactly the same[crosstalk 00:27:33]
Debra Ruh: No, it isn’t.
Stefan Tromel: So, in all these little tips that sometimes, I think sometimes they make the difference. Because otherwise if a company goes there and says well, we will do it on our own, perhaps they would [crosstalk 00:27:50]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: Have a failure. And the problem is when you fail in the area of disability it basically means that, that organization might not try again for the next number of years, because we still have the situation where the success experience with one or a couple of peoples experience leads to more effort. If the first efforts are a failure because you didn’t get the right advise, the right guidance, you did it the wrong way, then the whole … The door is closed for the next five or 10 years.
So we really need to make sure that companies that are willing to do it, are provided with the adequate support so that their initial steps in a new country are successful steps, no? And then the ball will roll, they will become champions, if the whole process has been done in the right way. If they employed, have employed people with disabilities for the right reasons. The impact that it has, it’s basically what our company networks with our [inaudible 00:28:50] members say, no?
It has a significant impact on staff motivation. It’s not just motivated staff with disabilities, it is[crosstalk 00:28:56]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: There are sometimes these success stories that you said, but we cannot always expect that people with disabilities will perform more productively, but they’re definitely as productive[crosstalk 00:29:08]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: Their health records are very similar, if not better. Absenteeism and all that. So, and of course, if adequate workplace adjustments are being provided and there’s been good matching between the job and the person as you would do for any other employee, then the success story. And then it definitely has a positive impact on motivation also of their colleges, it has a significant also on customer loyalty,[crosstalk 00:29:33]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: On the image of the … And all those things are increasingly important in nowadays world, because[crosstalk 00:29:40]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: We all know that consumers are more and more choosing the companies also for the values and the principles that are within those companies. And consumers more and more are making a difference between companies that are respectful of diversity. That includes disabilities, not specific disabilities, but also include other issues are definitely more and more the rights of people with disabilities is one of those elements that is being measured by all stakeholders. And I think that is important for companies to realize. And the network members have definitely realized that and fully in line as well.
Debra Ruh: And, I want to be mindful of your time. I could talk to you for hours, and have on this topic, but two … A couple of final questions. One thing that I value the ILO’s efforts for a lot of reasons as a global disability strategist and somebody that just really cares about this community and I’ve used a lot of the data that is being created from this business to business effort. I am on your LinkedIn group, I’m part of, I look at the videos that are being created by your members and they’re powerful data for business. And I’ve used a lot of it.
You’ve done reports, you’re partnered with, this is just the stuff I know about, Stefan, and I know you’re doing a lot more, but partnering with other UN organizations like the Global Compact to create business to business information and sometimes in the United States when we’re talking about this I’ll hear people throw out statistical information that is old, is not grounded, it sometimes doesn’t make sense. And the businesses are like well, I’m confused, how can you have control of so many ka-trillions of dollars if so many people with disabilities are unemployed. And so sometimes the data that is not good, grounded data, confuses corporations, and so I go to the ILO looking for my resource. The white papers.
So I’d like you to talk a little bit about that and also how can corporations, or anyone interested, find out more number one, about the network, and also about more about this event that we’re going to do, and I’m really blessed to be one of your speakers, on June 20th.
Stefan Tromel: Sure, well I start with the second part of the question.
Debra Ruh: Sorry, I have long questions.
Stefan Tromel: Google, I looked up business and disability network that will come across our website and there they will find, quite easily, the information on our event. We’ve shared information also through a LinkedIn group, which is increasingly getting, raising attention. So it’s not difficult to find information. I think the program is thanks to your work Debra, the program is really looking good. I think it will really be a meeting that people will remember and hopefully it will lead to an increased, active presence, of the US based countries in our global network, really, that’s our main expectation.
Now, the issue of data is a complex one.[crosstalk 00:32:53]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: From country to country, I mean even the prevalence of data are very diverse. In the US you generally see about 20, 25% of the population have some form of disability. In other countries you see about 1%, and of course the ain reason is you use very different definitions[crosstalk 00:33:11]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: Of disability. I think, let’s say, the commonly agreed figure at global level is 15%, which results from the world disability being polled produced by the World Health Organization and the World Bank in 2011. I think it’s only fair to say that when we think about people with disabilities as consumers it’s also not just people with disabilities themselves but also their family environment is also of course influenced[crosstalk 00:33:41]
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: By choosing, if possible, companies and services and products that are first inclusive and have been designed thinking of people with disabilities, but also as much as possible if they know that these companies also employ directly people with disabilities of course, that also makes a difference.
You referred to the collaboration with the Global Compact. That we are in fact currently finalizing a guide on, for business on the rights of people with disabilities. And that includes not just the employment element, which is to some extent our main focus because of who we are, but also definitely includes very importantly the consumer angle, no?
Debra Ruh: Right
Stefan Tromel: And one of the elements that it says is that if companies are interested in being seen as a leader in, from the point of view of consumers with disabilities, having people with disabilities working for them, helping them to ensure that their products and services are inclusive of people with disabilities, oof course makes big difference.
Debra Ruh: Great, well, I’m gonna go ahead and wind down the interview, but I will say that, of course the video’s going to be captioned and we’re going to have a transcription because we want it to be accessible for everyone. We also will be including the links to how to find out more about the ILO, Global Business Disability Network, and also more, as a matter of fact I have an article coming out in the Huffington Post in the next couple of days, which will include some of this information, but it’s such a broad topic that every time we talk, we talk about more and more because we really need to have these global conversations about full inclusion and people with disabilities.
So, thank you Stefan, for your leadership. We are very grateful.
Stefan Tromel: Thanks to you.
Debra Ruh: And thank you for joining us today.
So, bye, everyone.
Narrator: (classical music) You’ve been listening to Human Potential At Work with Debra Ruh. To learn more about Debra, and how she can help your organization visit rueglobal.com. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and you want to make sure that you don’t miss any future episodes go to iTunes and subscribe to the PodCast Human Potential At Work. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back next week with a new episode.
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You’ve been listening to Human Potential at Work with Debra Ruh. To learn more about Debra and how she can help your organization visit RuhGlobal.com. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and you want to make sure that you don’t miss any future epsiodes, go to itunes and subscribe to Human Potential at Work. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back next week with a new episode.