Human Potential at Work Podcast Show Flyer for Episode 74: How Disruption Can Benefit Persons With Disabilities
Human Potential at Work Podcast Show Flyer for Episode 74: How Disruption Can Benefit Persons With Disabilities

Guest: David Banes       Guest Title: Director of David Banes Access and Inclusion Services

Date: September 21st, 2017            Guest Company: David Banes Access and Inclusion Services            


Debra:                     Hello, everyone. This is Debra Ruh, and you’re listening to Human Potential at Work. David Banes, who has been a previous guest, and I think is one of the most brilliant minds in our industry, is joining us today. David has a lot of skills that he brings to the table, but one of the skills that he brings is really understanding disruption. I’m fascinated by how disruption disrupts and also can benefit our lives, especially the lives of individuals with disabilities all over the world, so I’m really enjoying having another conversation with David Banes. As I said the last time that he was on the program, David is going to be a regular guest, and so if you want us to cover any topics that revolve around disruption, or the assistive technology, or accessibility, or disability inclusion, please let us know, because he’s very eager to really share his wisdom and learn from you as well. David, welcome to the program.

David:                      Thank you very much. It’s good to be back with you.

Debra:                     Yes. David, remind our listeners and viewers where you’re joining from and a little bit about you.

David:                      Where are I? I’m in the U.K., in England, in Milton Keynes, where it’s been raining. A lot of my work doesn’t take place here. A lot of my work is in different parts of the world. I did a lot of work in the Middle East and still do so. I also have connections, and contacts, and work I do in the Far East and into Africa and so on, as well as in parts of Europe. When I talk about sort of areas we’re going to talk about, it’s very much looking at different influences, different perspectives where, perhaps, the history and legacy that we’ve had in the West isn’t as well situated and as well formulated as it is for us.

Debra:                     David, elaborate just a little bit more on that particular comment.

David:                      Yeah. When I was in America earlier in the year, there was a lot of work being done, people talking about how many years, for instance, the ADA had been in place and so on. These are long-standing developments that have led us into an assistive technology industry which is really very, very well established. It’s very effective in what it does. When you start to look in other parts of the world, for all sorts of reasons, not least of all whether or not solutions and technologies are available in the language that people are or want, that industry is not as well developed. As a result, they’re starting to think about or have been thinking about, “How do we meet the need that, perhaps, in America’s been delivered like this or in Europe has been delivered like that, to meet the needs of our communities?” They haven’t got the legacy of it has been done like this for 20 years. And that’s [crosstalk 00:03:11]-

Debra:                     For 27. Yeah.

David:                      They leapfrog that process.

Debra:                     Right, right.

David:                      That’s where things get interesting.

Debra:                     Right. Because the Americans With Disabilities Act, which was signed in 1990, is 27 years old.

David:                      Yeah.

Debra:                     We, actually, in the United States, started working on disability inclusion after World War II, trying to make sure that our service people were reintegrated back into society. We’ve really been doing it in the U.S., really, since the ’40s. There’s a lot of legacy built there. Some of it works, and quite a bit of it doesn’t work.

David:                      Absolutely. A big thing in different parts of the world has to do with the costs of assistive technology.

Debra:                     Right, right.

David:                      If we think about things like handheld magnifiers, the sort of devices that people buy, they’re really quite expensive for a very specific product, so in many parts of the world, those are beyond purchase price. How we change our approach to the provision of that type of functionality then has a knock-on effect and potentially disrupts the market for those handheld devices back in the countries where they were originally developed.

Debra:                     David, let’s take a minute, and let’s dig into the word disruption. Disruption is often considered a bad thing, and it is certainly stressful. We certainly know that in the U.S., but you also join us in the U.K. of having quite a bit of disruption going on in our own countries. Some of that is extremely painful and … But at the same time, as we look back through history, disruptions sometimes and often can lead to much better things, but if you’re the entity, or the person, or the industry that’s being disrupted, it can be quite painful. Let’s just spend a little bit of time talking about disruption.

                                    You know what? When I was thinking about this conversation, something that immediately jumped in my head from my U.S. lens … I remember Circuit City in the United States. Circuit City was this amazing company that sold everything, and you went in there, and you … this [inaudible 00:05:33] of all these different, wonderful products. They also were located in my state, the Commonwealth of Virginia. They were one of our biggest employers. Here comes this Best Buy that’s, I believe, located in Minnesota. Love Minnesota. They’re so smart in Minnesota, but … Here’s this Best Buy, and they’re immediately starting to disrupt Circuit City. Then Best Buy is amazing, and wonderful, and all these things that are happening.

                                    Then we have Netflix and, well, no Blockbusters. Remember Blockbusters, you could go into the store, and it was a little bit like Heaven. You could go in there, and you could get any video, I thought, that you wanted. We would go in there and spend hours just shopping around. Then here comes Netflix. What? What do you mean streaming? That’s ridiculous. I’m showing my age, but I remember, when I was a kid, you had three channels. You watched the news at 6:00 at night. Saturday morning was for cartoons, and you did not miss the cartoons. You didn’t miss the cartoons because it’s the only time you got them.

                                    I talk about this to my kids, who are now adults, and they’re like, “Mom, obviously you’re from the Dark Ages.” There’s just one little stream of disruption, and it’s been interesting. Just speaking about Netflix, for example, I remember they would send you the videos to your … and they still will do this … to your house … or the DVDs. Then here comes Redbox. You can go the grocery store, and there’s that Redbox, and you can get current ones, and you can pick out what you want, and they’re cheaper. The Netflix CEO said, “Oh, well, we’re not gonna do the send-it-to-you-in-the-mail anymore. We’re just gonna do streaming,” and they lost just a ton of customers over night. How do technologists deal with all this disruption? It’s almost like we have to be psychic to figure out where the industry’s going or the industries are going.

David:                      Yeah. I mean there’s some really interesting things in that description you gave. Disruption is not just about technology. There’s lots of people innovate and bring in new things. It’s not about competition, per se. It’s also about changing the business model. It’s the form of delivery as much as it is the technology.

                                    It’s a really good example you had there, which is where we moved from buying product to renting product, and from renting product, owning it and giving it back, then to what streaming represented, which was on-demand. A lot of that is driven by changes in user behavior and, I mean, what we see happening in one field influences the other. This whole demand for on-demand services in a range of areas gave rise to things like Netflix, so it became part of an expectation of users that what they wanted, they would get.

                                    We had music, first of all. On-demand music, legally or illegally, had a big part of our expectations. We started to see that on-demand music [inaudible 00:09:01]. As the technology allowed us to, we then reached out and said, “Actually, you know, we don’t have to release one episode per week at 9:00 p.m. We can release them all at once, and you can buy them all at once, and you can watch them all in 24 hours if you want to.” That’s where the streaming, on-demand services came from.

                                    Where this starts to become interesting is, as we get more and more of this form of delivery, that starts to create an expectation amongst the market, any market. Understanding that that has changed, people’s aspirations and expectations, is really important. We then start to turn to the assistive technology industry because, increasingly, people get their services, their technologies, on demand. They go into the app store. They find it. They download it. They pay for it. It’s done.

                                    That’s the business model element, and that’s what really disrupts, because that shifts and changes the whole model of going to a provider, buying it, waiting for it to be approved, having it sent to you, and so on. That’s where disruption comes from. That’s the difference between disruption and just great innovation, which might be incremental or sustaining. Disruption says, “We’re gonna wipe the slate clean and rebuild it.”

                                    That’s why, sometimes, I get into discussions with people and they say, “We shouldn’t reinvent the wheel.” Well, as I say, we didn’t reinvent the wheel, we’d never have a hovercraft.

Debra:                     That’s right.

David:                      Actually, there are times where … and disruption says, “Actually, you know what? We will reinvent the wheel. Is the wheel the best way of moving stuff from A to B? And if it’s not, what would it look like?”

Debra:                     Yeah. My father, who’s passed over … My father, he taught me to love technology so much. I’m fascinated. I’m just fascinated with the times. It’s very interesting. When we say assistive technology … I heard somebody the other day say, “adaptive technology,” and I thought, “Wow, I have not heard that term in the United States in a long time,” because adaptive technology is really considered the same as assistive technology, but it’s used in other parts of the world, which … I think we’re moving away from that terminology.

                                    Also, with the assistive technology industry, many of the businesses, the industry, the manufacturers, they’re very small. They’re small. Some of the biggest in the industry are considered small businesses by U.S. standards. Then we, of course, have the mainstream. I remember walking into Best Buy, again, so many years ago and seeing Dragon Naturally Speaking on the shelf, and I thought, “Wow, that’s in a mainstream place. Wow.” Of course, the lawyers, and the doctors, and teachers started saying, “Oh, this really makes a lot of sense for us,” but I have had employees that, if they don’t have text-to-speech or speech-to-text like a Dragon, they can’t work. This is how they operate their machinery.

                                    Then, of course, Apple disrupted everything by creating the iPhone and putting voiceover on it. Then NVDA, the screen reader, disrupted everything by creating an open-source screen reader. Then studies have been done, research studies through … all of a sudden, I’m forgetting … WebAIM, that showed many of the users preferred NVDA as an open-source as opposed to a package such as Windows Eyes or JAWS screen readers. There’s a quite a bit of disruption happening everywhere, but I believe that if we can live through the pain of it, that people with disabilities are definitely going to benefit from the disruptions that are happening.

David:                      Yeah. One of the big things that’s driving that is market. Really interesting, we talked about screen readers. Okay, let’s think of that as text-to-speech. Now, the reason why we might see those technologies built in is not simply because blind people need them, those poor blind people. Know what? We all need our technology with us all the time. It pervades. When we’re driving, when we’re walking, when we’re doing this, when we’re doing that, we want to be able to get information. When we’re driving … So if we’ve got a good text-to-speech on our phone, we’re driving, it will speak out the message that comes to us. You can Bluetooth it to your car stereo, and it’ll be spoken across your stereo. I almost said CD player then, but disrupted innovation, a lot of cars don’t come with CD players anymore. They have Bluetooth MP3 players and so on.

                                    The market is much bigger, the functionality that’s not much needed. This concept of situational disability is really important, that there’s certain thing we cannot do because the context we’re in and, hence, that sense of adaptive transformational technology which coverts the data, the information into another format, meets our needs. That expands the market massively. It expands the demand massively. Hence, how do we deliver it, because you know what? I’m not going to spend £700 on a piece of software that allows me to hear my emails in the half-hour drive to work. It’s not going to work like that. Hence, it’ll have to be a different approach.

Debra:                     Yeah, because I happen to be an iPhone user, and when an app … which is ridiculous … When an app says to me that I need to pay $4.99, I’m like, “Really? Why? Why do …” It’s like, “Debra, come on. These people are working really hard.”

                                    I want to talk just for a sec … I want to stop on the situational disabilities. I was training a very large client, and what we did, and I loved how they did it, I trained the executive, the management team, and then we were training all of the users. We were training them in groups like content developers, programmers, marketing, and sales people. I was trying to think how to tell them why making sure that things are accessible to all customers was good for everyone, including customers with disabilities or employees with disabilities. I was trying to think of as broad of an argument as possible. What I did was I did explain the statistics of one in seven people in the world have a disability according to the World Health Organization. In the United States, one in five people identify. One in three families are impacted [inaudible 00:16:11]. I explained how people like me that are older … My husband just got hearing aids because he had significant hearing loss. As we age, we get disabilities.

                                    The thing that they were the most intrigued by was the situational disabilities, so I used examples of a noisy call center, or you’re standing on the road and that this is the time they’re going to do the jackhammers, or I’m trying to use my computer and there’s too much light, or you live in a beautiful part of Virginia that has, I think, the worst wifi in the world. It’s horrible. Horrible. I’m in Virginia, and I’m two hours’ drive from Washington, D.C. That is definitely situational. Of course, we can think of others. I think that part of it … There’s a quote that I have out there that says, “Accessibility is for all of us. Accessibility is for human beings because we all want access.”

                                    I’ll tell you a silly story in that my mom is 77 years old, and she bought herself an iPhone, and she cannot swipe it on. She cannot swipe it on. I have sat with her. I’ve showed her. I’ve talked to her. I’ve had her do it. I’ve called her. She cannot swipe the phone on. She pays $65 every single month for this phone that she cannot use. She cannot turn the phone on. I’m like, “All you have to do is swipe it.” Of course, she gets very mad at me about those little, “All you have to do …” Of course, having access to technology, there’s having access, which we know is part of it, David, and then the ability to use it, the ability … Then you start moving out of the developed world to the countries that are developing, the Africa, the India, the parts of the Middle East, and the word disruption certainly comes into play. I think the situational disabilities are very valid.

                                    I know that in the country where I live … I live in Hanover County in Virginia. The homeowners are screaming at the government of Hanover County because what’s happening is, when people are coming to the lovely part of where we live in Virginia, they ask us what wifi options we have, and we’re like, “Um, well, um, um,” and they’re not buying our homes, and so it’s hurting our property values. That’s just a little tiny thing, but it’s … talk about the disruption of it.

                                    I’ll give you another example, David, that I think I’ve talked about on the radio before, but … I mean on the program before. I do a lot of work, as do you David, with the United Nations. I remember a story at a United Nations event where a little girl in India was not going to school because she was profoundly hard of hearing, and so the UN stepped in and got her hearing aids, and what a success. Yay, this bright young girl is going to school. They come back six months later. She’s back at home, not going to school. They’re like, “Why aren’t you going to school?” The parents said, “Well, because we can’t afford batteries.” The batteries were $4 U.S., but that was almost as much as the family paid on food. $4 might sound like just ridiculous nothing, but there are real consequences.

                                    Not to mention a lot of the work that you’ve done, David, in that a lot of the assistive technology that’s been created, it’s only created in English. I admired so much the work you did in Qatar to make sure that the assistive technology was being created in Arabic. We talked about it briefly on the last show, but do you mind talking about that? Because I just was not aware of the problem until you started solving it, David.

David:                      Yeah. I think there’s a few problems that are not well understood. The first issue is we know, for instance, about things like translation. We can take a piece of software or a product and say, “Okay, we’re going to translate it.” That’s fine. That’s relatively easy. When you actually dig a bit further into assistive technologies, actually, it’s not just about the words. It’s about the meaning, and the culture, and the nuance in those words, so straight translation often isn’t helpful because it doesn’t carry a nuance with it. The example we always gave was assistive technology which, when you translate it over into Arabic, the phrase for assistive technology in Arabic vaguely means machines that help us. We lost the nuance of the word, because it’s that 25, 30 years of using the terminology, because those are the natural word that people were using that it may be more … something’s just more recognized now, a few years later.

                                    Then when you look at things like such as graphics and representation for symbols for AAC users, the images that are used are culturally embedded, the way people are dressed, the relationships between men and women, the definition of family. Those are cultural norms, and those cultural norms may not transfer into other languages and communities, so we have to adjust those and amend those to increase their familiarity. These are all things in terms of the localization.

                                    What this leads us to, eventually, is once we’ve gone through that localization process, you realize that, actually, that’s not the long-term future for accessible technologies for people within that language community. Ultimately, they’re going to need to be driven from within that language community. They may look different. Some of those may then be translated and localized for the West, but actually, the need is driving that sense of innovation within those communities because it is more than just straightforward translation.

                                    I had a conversation in Washington recently with one of the big IT companies. They were saying, “Okay. All you need to do is … You go onto our website, and you look for the screen reader, and it’ll tell you all the different languages that it’s available in.” I said, “That’s great. If I want to know what is available in my language, can I do it the other way around and say, ‘Tell me the accessibility features in Arabic or Urdu?'” I said, “No, no, no. You go to each one, and it will tell you if it’s available.”

Debra:                     Yeah, yeah. What if I don’t speak English, though?

David:                      Yeah. Well, and even then, it’s more about actually … You want me to go through multiple web pages to find out what there is. What I actually need to know is, I’m an Urdu speaker, I’m an Arabic speaker, what is available for me? That drives the decision rather than the availability of specific products. I think that lack of understanding of the centrality of language and culture drives, again, that sense of innovation from within communities.

Debra:                     I was fascinated when I was invited to Sharjah in the United Arabic Emirates, as a matter of fact, by you. Thank you.

David:                      You’re welcome.

Debra:                     I was fascinated with the different presentations I saw. There was one presentation, you’re probably going to remember where it was from, where they were talking about helping somebody that is a Muslim, and there’s certain things to be a Muslim. They were explaining how you would help a person with an intellectual disability communicate their, also, love for Allah. It was just so interesting for me as somebody that’s been raised in the United States and raised as a Christian. I was fascinated to see how they were explaining this for the perspective of individuals that are practicing the Muslim religion in the Arabic world. There were just nuances that I just absolutely had no idea about, and I just found them so fascinating.

David:                      Yeah. I think one of the big issues we were dealing with was the centrality of the family. Now, when we then went on to start looking at things like independent living … The concept of independent living when you’re transferring that from the West is the idea of living by yourself independently.

Debra:                     Which nobody-

David:                      That’s not something which transfers naturally. Now, that has implications for the type of technologies and your use of technologies that you might need. It doesn’t mean to say that you don’t want that technology because you don’t want to be dependent on somebody coming to your room every single time, turn the light on, turn the light off for you.

                                    Hence, as we see the growth of something like smart home technologies, a mainstream way of controlling your environment, that’s really relevant because, within the home you’re living in with your family, perhaps your parents, brothers, and so on, that you might well want [inaudible 00:25:54] way which is shared across you all where you control the whole environment. Rather than a specific adaptation for my disability, we all have a common way of controlling the environment. We can use things like Amazon Echo to do so much, but if we have our voice, we can change TV channels, we can switch the lights on and off, we can open the doors, we can open the windows, we can call for assistance, and so on from wherever we are. That gives us a degree of independence within the context and culture which we feel most comfortable with.

                                    I think, some ways, when we talk about disruption, some of these issues are quite important, where the new technologies that are emerging allow us to live as independently as we desire within the culture within which we are part rather than saying, “This is how we define independence. This will let you do it.” It’s quite important. That fluidity and flexibility is quite important for innovation for us. Again, that expands our market.

Debra:                     Right. And understanding the real nuances, country to country, area to area, it’s very complex. It’s so complex. Sometimes I am amazed at what I learn that I just had not considered. Once again, with the example I was using about the hearing aids, someone in that village actually came up with a way to do solar-powered hearing aids so that this little girl wasn’t having to constantly try to figure out how they’re going to get batteries. In that one instance, you think, “Oh, that’s so easy. Just give her a big package of batteries.” Well, multiply that out by there a billion people with disabilities. I’m fascinated with the social impact and the social good and that it’s not about nationality. It’s about humanity and the cultural differences, the language difference. Go ahead, David.

David:                      Yeah. I think there’s some really interesting things here because one of the things that is driving innovation in different ways is very broad changes that are taking place internationally.

                                    Emergency situations are a really good example to return to our theme of situational disability. In an emergency situation, it may be that there is no power available to you, just like in some of those villages that are there. Then we sort of say, “Okay, so how do we power devices in an emergency situation?” You’re going to say, “Well, you know, well, we can create low-cost solar charges.” In doing so, to respond to that need, by tweaking the scenario, we can then apply it to our situation with hearing aids. We can apply it to our need to keep communication aids [inaudible 00:28:53] fully charged and so on.

                                    Part of this, and I think part of what we, as a community of assistive technology, need to bring is to really begin to try and think outside the parameters of technologies. If somebody develops a solar charger, there are multiple places, scenarios in which it can be used. Helping people understand what those scenarios are affects the design, the ease of use, and so on. Rather than designing for a small group to meet a specific need, we need to make sure that is being spread out.

                                    We can see that in some of the interfaces that are being developed for things like mobile phones. Somebody comes in and says, “I’ll design this simple … for somebody who’s visually impaired.” As assistive technologists, when we look at it, we say, “You know what? If you tweak it like this, if you innovate a stage further, it’s great for people with learning disabilities. It’s great for the elderly, somebody with Alzheimer’s.” All of these become factors. Disruptive innovation is sometimes about taking an idea designed for a particular concept and expanding, building, and reshaping it, and repurposing it for a much bigger audience.

Debra:                     Why do we need disruption in the accessibility, the assistive technology, the disability inclusion? Why, David? Why do we need it?

David:                      First of all, demand. The numbers of people who need accessible technologies right across the world is increasing constantly. Now, that’s partly in the West because of the Baby Boomer generations. Series, whatever it is, of Game of Thrones just came out.

Debra:                     Yes. I love it.

David:                      I switched on the captions.

Debra:                     Yes, yes. My husband was captioning, but now he can actually hear it. His hearing aids are so amazing and so expensive, and insurance doesn’t pay a penny of it, that I’m actually jealous of those hearing aids because what he can do, it’s amazing. I’m actually jealous of his hearing aids.

David:                      That aging population is increasing demand for captions because there’s more of us now who benefit from them.

Debra:                     Right.

David:                      It’s equally true in other parts of the world where improved health services may mean that it’s still got a young population but there are much more people living over the age of 65, 75, and so on.

                                    Our first problem is demand, and as that demand at that sort of level starts to impact on economics, because [inaudible 00:31:24] of a piece of software or a solution for an individualized certain price point, when you start … And if it’s going to be paid for by the government, or by insurance, or by whoever, that can’t be sustained as the market expands massively. There has to be a different way of addressing that need. There’s no longer simply about one person at a time being provided with a solution. Demographics and economics are a really big issue. Of course, in the West, we’re still recovering from the financial crisis, but austerity measures mean, actually, we can’t just simply duplicate that.

                                    Then there’s a third factor, which is geography, that actually … People can’t always get access to the services to identify a solution, which is quite expensive or to be recommended. They need geography. They need things delivered on demand so they can find it, try it, purchase it, and use it. It’s that on-demand factor because, geographically, you may not have expertise close to you, which is quite important. What that does, it takes us full circle, and it says, “You know what? I’m not gonna drive an hour to go and get a DVD from Blockbuster because I’ll stream it using broadband.”

Debra:                     Right, right.

David:                      It becomes exactly the same, then, when we start to talk about how am I going to use my assistive technology? That expectation, the way in which my needs are met, is much more immediate, becomes much broader. That takes us a full circle in [inaudible 00:33:07]. These are the drivers: economics, demographics, geography, and user behavior and aspirations. That final one is really important, and that’s what’s sometimes difficult for the companies producing AT to understand, because they’re getting great feedback on their products. They’re putting out products, and all their users are saying, “This is fantastic, and I did this. This little bit extra, that would be great. It would be just that little bit better.”

                                    Alongside that, the way in which they’re doing other things, the way they’re consuming information and other types of device building is changing. Then, suddenly, it flips, and people start saying, “You know what? I just want it on that device. I just don’t want to have a big piece of software. I just need it to do X, and I want to able to do that tomorrow.” Then we got just whole trends happening in terms of things like artificial intelligence, augmented and virtual realities. These platforms are opening up, but the danger is a new digital divide is opening up at the same time.

Debra:                     Yes. I agree.

David:                      There are [inaudible 00:34:12] countries around the world looking at those new platforms, those new technologies, as new ways of meeting their own digital divide.

Debra:                     Like the exoskeleton, which is incredible, but the reality is most people can’t afford it. I understand pricing. That’s just part of the disruption. I remember assistive technology … There would be assistive technology provided in the school, but you didn’t get it at home, and then you couldn’t use it during the summer when you took summer breaks. Then when you went to a different school … You moved, say, from middle school to the high school. It didn’t follow. It was so disjointed, so there was all this loss of opportunity, and learning, and remembering, and training, and … All of that is causing disruption.

                                    I remember … My daughter Sara has trisomy 21, or Down syndrome, and she was really struggling to read. I was saying, at the time, “Well, why don’t we use some assistive technology like Kurzweil or something to help her learn to read?” The teachers were like, “Well, we don’t even know what you mean,” at the time. That was a long time ago, but, “We don’t even know what you mean by assistive technology much less … What?”

                                    It’s a very complex world that we live in, and it’s changing and shifting so fast. We need people like you, David, that are actually helping make sense of the disruption that’s happening. You’re doing it all over the world, including in the United States. I think these are powerful conversations. We really look forward to others joining these conversations and letting us know what they’re thinking and continuing to learn from you, David, as you’re going around the world advising these governments on how can they learn from what is working, where we’re going? There’s just so many pieces to this.

David:                      There’s some things we can first … We’re going to run out of time soon, but let’s … Disruption was influenced by changes in the ways which things are distributed.

Debra:                     Right.

David:                      Now, let’s apply that in our thinking to our assistive technology. We don’t any longer buy and order it and have it delivered as a piece of hardware or software. We do it through an app store. Let’s take that a stage further and think about what it would mean if you could distribute the design of assistive technology under license for manufacture and creation within different communities and also allow it to be customized, localized, translated, all those things we talked about. Is that enough to shift and change the business model upon which research is exploited? We actually sell designs or we put them out as open-source and open designs. We sell our knowledge, our innovation, rather than the nuts, bolts, transistors, and circuit boards.

Debra:                     It seems that-

David:                      That’s maybe the next stage of disruption for assistive-

Debra:                     Yeah. I agree. I agree. That way, it is important for people to make money in these industries.

David:                      Yes.

Debra:                     We want people to make money. I mean people need to make money to pay their bills, but yeah, it’s a very exciting, complex topic. I look forward to continue to talking to you about this and, once again really welcome comments and feedback from our viewers and any particular topics you want to go into. This is why we’ve got to have many, many conversations, because it’s such a complex conversation, but disruption is alive in our industry, isn’t it, David?

David:                      It is, and it’s very exciting for people with disabilities, and a little bit scary at the same time.

Debra:                     Yeah, very stressful. David, before I let you go, and I know we did this last time, but I always want to make sure our viewers know how to contact you. Luckily, you’re part of the Human Potential at Work Facebook group, so people can always find you there, but how do they find out more about David Banes?

David:                      Okay. The best way to do it … One of the things I do is I use a lot of different channels on social media. What I like to be able to do is to say, okay, whichever form of social media you like, you can find me there. If you do a search for DaveBanesAccess, and Banes is B-A-N-E-S. It’s a bizarre spelling. If you do a little search as one word on your preferred social media … I’m getting old. I don’t get Snapchat yet.

Debra:                     I’m not.

David:                      Yes, that’s just way too confusing, but I’m on most social medias, Pinterest, Twitter, Facebook, and so on. You’ll find me on there. Use the channel which you’re most comfortable with, and I’ll try and accommodate there.

Debra:                     Yes, and people can always come to me and ask me, “Please, I want to ask David some questions. I want to talk with David.” David has his own consulting group, and you can see why I think David’s brilliant. David, thank you so much for joining us today. I look forward to continuing this complicated conversation.

David:                      Look forward to it. You take care.

Debra:                     Thanks, David. Bye-bye, everyone.

David:                      Bye-bye.

Speaker 3:             You’ve been listening to Human Potential at Work with Debra Ruh. To learn more about Debra and how she can help your organization, visit If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and you want to make sure that you don’t miss any future episodes, go to iTunes and subscribe to the podcast Human Potential at Work. Thanks so much for listening. We’ll be back next week with a new episode.