Guest: Paige Mayer Guest Title: Director of Communications & Customer Success at Eturi Corp.
Date: January 31, 2018 Guest Company: Eturi
Debra: Hello everyone, this is Debra Ruh and you’re listening to “Human Potential At Work.” I’m excited to have Paige Mayer joining me today and Doug Foresta, my producer and my mentor. And we are going to be talking about, really, the digital divide. What happens when you have children, sometimes, that know more about technology than you do or what happens when we’re trying to understand these wonderful new devices and social media and internet and how do they impact our children.
As somebody that has been greatly impacted by this topic in a positive and negative way, I’m looking forward to the conversation. I wanted Doug Foresta, who joins often on the program, to join the program because Doug is the father of two children; a son and a little baby girl, and it’s just interesting as he walks this path with me. And the reason why we ask … And it will be very clear why we asked Paige to join, but Paige is part of a company that has a pretty amazing app called “Our Pact.” And I’ve actually talked about this application on the program before and I’m a paid user of this app because it has brought some peace in my family and peace is really good. So, Doug and Paige, welcome to the show.
Doug: Thank you. Thank you, Debra.
Debra: And Paige, will you introduce yourself to the audience?
Paige: Definitely. My name is Paige, I’m joining from “Our Pact.” We developed a mobile app, as Debra said, that allows parents or guardians to manage mobile devices, iOS and Android. So yeah, it’s pretty exciting. It’s been a few year journey, but we’re making progress.
Debra: Yeah, it is … I know I don’t ever make it a commercial, but this application has brought peace in my family. I have talked about this before; I have a daughter that is now 30 years old and she was born with Down syndrome and she is a very savvy tech user. A lot of times a lot more savvy than I am and we have really been challenged by issues in our household. Doug, I know that you’ve been on the program many times, but can you tell the audience a little bit about who you are and also just introduce your children because this is the topic we’re talking about; parenting. We’re looking at this from a parenting perspective.
Doug: Absolutely. I am Doug Foresta, I am the producer of “Human Potential at Work.” I do podcast producing. My background is I have a MSW, a masters in social work, so I’m also a licensed therapist and did that for many years. And I have two children, yes. One is my son Sam, who’s 12 and Ellie, who is nine months. Fortunately right now, at least for Ellie, the biggest problem I have is she tries to eat my phone. I do have trouble with my electronics, but they’re a little bit more manageable problems.
Debra: Yeah. So let me tell the update … People, if you haven’t heard this story, let me just give you a little story about how I got to “Our Pact.” I noticed that my daughter, she’s 30 years old, she’s an adult. And she has a Apple device and she’s very good at it. She’s very good on it, she loves technology. But I started noticing not only some severe behavior problems, but I actually started seeing her having some mental health problems. Depression, anxiety, a little bit of hostility. I remember an episode in the bathroom where I was trying to take her device away from her and we actually got in a little wrestling match. And I thought, “Oh my gosh, how am I here? I’m supposed to be a better parent than this.”
So, I started realizing that I needed to do something to limit her time on the device, on social media, on the internet. She never was going anyplace inappropriate. She was sometime making posts that were … I would prefer that she didn’t make. Little silly things like she ate a strawberry and it dripped down her mouth and so she posted that she was the queen of the vampires. She loves “Twilight” and all those different things, but I just had some friends going, “That’s sort of …”
Anyway, it was interesting and so we decided to do a search to try to figure out, is there anything out there that can help me so that I’m actually not always the bad guy having to go and wrestle my daughter’s device out of her hand. Which, you can see how that could go wrong. I remember confiding in Doug, saying “I’ve lost control of the situation with the devices and I’m trying to put limits on it, but we’re actually having …” It just was causing a lot of stress in the family. And Doug told me about a story with his, at the time, 11 year old son, getting lost on the bus.
I don’t know, Doug, if you want to talk about how you introduced a device to your son at an early age.
Doug: Sure, absolutely. He didn’t actually have a cell phone. We didn’t have a cell phone for him, but maybe six months ago or something like that, he was supposed to come home on the bus and he didn’t get off on the stop. Which, it’s the last stop, so I don’t know how he managed to miss the last stop. But anyway, he did it … 12 year old boys. And so we couldn’t reach him and of course his mom and I were freaking out, so at that point, we ended up getting him a phone. Yeah.
Paige: Yeah, makes sense. And that’s a very natural point at which often phones are introduced as a safety measure. You want to be able to reach your child at any given moment. It’s just figuring out how to strike that balance between being able to communicate with your child, and know where they are, contact them at any given moment, but at the same time, set a limit on all the other stuff that can come into play when you give your child a device and they don’t necessarily have the maturity to manage that.
Doug: That’s right.
Debra: Right. Which is a great point, Paige, because this is new to society. We didn’t have these same issues when I was growing up or when Doug was growing up. And you had said something, Paige, before we started the interview, that I thought was very interesting about digital natives and about children actually sometimes being more digitally savvy than their parents. So how are their parents supposed to put limits on it? Do you mind speaking more on that?
Paige: Certainly. Yeah, I mean, as I was saying, this is the first generation where parents aren’t natives in something that their children are natives in. And so a lot of the listeners will be familiar with this struggle, but you have a child who’s teaching their parent how to use their device. They’re teaching their parents how to do all these shortcuts on their computer and so then that presents this really unique challenge for parents, where they’re trying to control something and set limits on this technology, but their children know how to get around those limits or they know how to use the technology more than their parents do. So, that’s when parents need to have tools in their tool belt that they can have working in their favor and it’s really, really important for them to be educated on what they can do, what they should be doing. There aren’t many rules. There isn’t a rule book for this and so a lot of parents are just kind of learning as they go.
Debra: Yep, that’s what’s happening in my family. How about you, Doug?
Doug: Most definitely. And it’s not just … If people think, “Well, I just won’t let me kid have a phone” or something … It’s not that easy, because … So last week, we had to got to the school and they just informed us that every child from K-12 will be getting their own laptop in the city that we live in. It will follow them for as long as the computer is relevant. Year to year, they will take it with them, they’ll have to take it every night and charge it and be responsible for it. And what they said is, more and more, the reason we’re doing this is because every single job that these children will do when they grow up requires computer literacy and so we would be remiss if we don’t teach children how to use computers.
I think something like “Our Pact” is so powerful because it’s kind of like electricity. Electricity can be very, very dangerous, right? I don’t recommend jumping on a power line. But, you can’t go back. You can’t just say, “Well, you know, let’s go back to the old days, when we had lanterns.” It doesn’t work. There’s no going back. The devices, the internet is here to stay. And I think as parents … And not just parents, I’m sure there’s a lot of other people who use “Our Pact” rather than just parents, but certainly for parents, we have to figure out how to help our children navigate this safely.
Paige: Yeah, it’s so true. Just as you said, we’re in a landscape now where if you aren’t comfortable with technology and you aren’t able to harness the power of technology, then you’re at a disadvantage. Especially when you’re looking 10 years from now, 20 years from now. It’s gonna be the children who know how to code, it’s gonna be the children who are familiar with system technology, information technology. They’re gonna be the people who have opportunities and that is something that a lot of parents can struggle with because it’s scary. A lot of parents don’t want to give over a device. They don’t want to give over a computer because it makes them feel powerless. But at the same time, understanding that there is so much good that can come from this technology. It’s really, really important to just figure out how, at the end of the day, to control that technology instead of letting it control you. As long as you can get that down, you can nail that, then all the good can come out and you’re in control of bad.
Debra: Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Doug: Debra, I’m wondering … I just want to interject a second. I’m wondering if we could say a little bit about some of the specific features that “Our Pact” offers, so people can get a better sense of what we’re talking about in terms of what can be done.
Debra: I agree, but before we do that, I just want to tell the story of how I found “Our Pact.”
Doug: Oh, yeah.
Debra: I mentioned that we actually did some research to figure out what is out there, how can we handle this. And there were different apps that were available. And the thing that I liked about “Our Pact” is that it was really something that I was gonna do with my daughter. I wasn’t just gonna say, “This is what you’re gonna do and you’re gonna obey me.” It was something that we could do together. And I know there are other things out there, but I have found the app to be just … Don’t you love when an app really makes a difference? And this one really does. So, there were a lot of things that I liked about what the app was going to do to help my daughter be successful and our family to be successful.
Paige, tell us more about “Our Pact,” why it was created, where you’re going with it, how many users you have. Once again, we wanted to talk about this, not just as a big commercial for “Our Pact,” I just am a huge fan, obviously. But it has really brought some peace to my family. But it is a fascinating subject because I don’t know anyone that’s not dealing with it. I have a friend of mine that’s a fifth grade teacher and she said, “Teaching students is so much different now than it used to be.” I have a friend that’s a college professor. The college professor said, “It has totally changed the dynamics of my classroom.” This is a huge issue. I also have done a lot of studies because Doug and I are gonna write a book about this. And I have found that they say that a young person’s brain is more susceptible to addiction than somebody that’s older to these devices. So, there’s some major societal problems here. Paige, tell us more about how y’all came into this field.
Paige: Definitely. So, just to kind of rewind back to the beginning, the company was initially actually started by a father. He worked in software, he had other software solutions, and he was at the end of the day, trying to go home to his family and have family meals and enjoy his time that he wasn’t working. And he was encountering this struggle, over and over and over again with his two younger daughters. He was trying to control their technology, but he also was of the parenting model where he wanted to work with them and he didn’t want to be enforcing these limits. He wanted it to be agreements that they were coming to together so that his daughters would understand, “This isn’t me doing this to punish you or to create turmoil. This is, at the end of the day, because I’m trying to help you and we are making these agreements together, so I expect you to adhere to them.”
So, it actually all started with a contract that he wrote with his two daughters that just said, “You know what, during bedtime I am not allowed to use my device. At family meals, I’m not allowed to use my device. When my parents ask me to put my device away, I will put it away. I’m only allowed to use social media for two hours a day.” They had this whole list of things that they were all agreeing on and then they signed it and they posted it on the fridge. And one morning, he’s looking at this contract; this family contract that they created and the thought, “Why don’t I create an application that can actually enforce these boundaries that we’ve agreed upon so that instead of me having to berate my daughters and say ‘Hey, put your device away. Don’t you remember our contract? It’s bedtime, give me your phone.” The technology would just do it for him, so that it would remove the struggle, it would remove that element of the conflict from the entire equation.
That’s kind of the basis of where our application grew from. And we’re still true to that model to this day, that we don’t even call “Our Pact” a parental control. We call it a mobile guidance solution. So, this is something that we expect parents to introduce to their children and develop the rules and restrictions with their children. When you install this app, we actually have an “Our Pact” family contract, still to this day. I can share that with you after this podcast, Debra, to share with your community. But yeah, just making those limits with your children, creating the block schedule. So, “Okay, what do you think is a reasonable time for your device to be blocked? Okay. What time do you think is reasonable for the device to become unblocked? What do you think is a reasonable screen time allowance for you to have during the week? How about the weekend?” And when you involve your children in these conversations, they are so much more likely to actually listen and participate and adhere to those rules that you’re setting.
I’m sorry I’m going on a bit of a monologue, but if I’m gonna talk a little bit about the features themselves, there are a lot of different options for managing with “Our Pact.” We have manual block, so you can set up time blocks. That’s kind of just on the fly management. So, let’s say, dinner’s ready, you want the family to come down for a meal. You can set a one hour block on the fly and it will kick in and all apps will be removed. Then you have automated schedules. So those kick in at the same time, and at the same time, you choose the days of the week, whether that’s bedtime, school hours, a weekly tutorial session. Just the consistent structure around the screen time. So those are just kind of set and forget.
And then you have selective app rules. So you can go through and see a list of all the apps that are installed on your child’s device and then choose to block them according to three rules. You can leave them always allowed; so if you have a health related application or an educational app that you want you child to have access to, you can leave that. And then you can choose to leave apps always locked. So that could be, a lot of parents block the app store, for example, at all times. That way any time your child wants to actually install a new application, they have to come to you and say, “Hey, I want to install this new app.” “Okay, I’m gonna unblock the app store for a minute, we’re gonna install it together, I’m gonna check out what this application is.” So that you’re involved in that process. And then the final is just blocked by “Our Pact.” So that’s social media, games, messaging applications. Anything that you want to be available, but only sometimes.
And then finally, we have allowance, which that basically allows you to set a daily time limit; whether that’s two hours a day during the week, three hours a day on the weekend. And then it becomes your child’s responsibility to actually manage that time independently, which is huge, because it gives them a sense of responsibility, it allows you to build trust, and they feel in control. That you can say, “Okay, you have two hours a day.” And keep in mind, this is outside of schedule or manual blocked time, so you’re still in control, but during those free time allotments that you’ve set, your child can go into an application on their device and play their screen time. All their apps will unblock, come back to their device, they can use them, they have to pause their time to save it. You can adjust the allowance based off of behavior. It’s really, really, really powerful.
And then I guess, on top of all of that, we have a geo-location monitor. So we do family location as well.
Paige: Yeah, it’s ..
Doug: It’s great.
Paige: Sorry for talking so long.
Debra: No, no.
Doug: No, not at all.
Debra: Because what I have been surprised about is, I understand my daughter has Down syndrome and that she has an intellectual disability and that the way she processes information is different from the way I process information. And so I saw with her just being able to be on her phone anytime she wanted, because she’s a 30 year old, right? That I started seeing really significant behavior changes. And not only did I see it, but my friends started noticing it. She didn’t want to work, she did not want to do anything, but play on her device. And I started thinking about my son when he was younger and he wanted to do that with his games; his gaming systems. His Ataris, his Playstations. So, I think the negative aspect of technology, the ability of us to get addicted to technology, we do have to have tools.
And I use “Our Pact,” obviously. I’ve been using it. And I am a paid subscriber. And I remember at one point … For about a year I used the free version, and then I decided to upgrade. Not for additional features, but because I was so grateful to “Our Pact” that I actually just upgraded because I wanted to reward whoever it was that had built this app. And then of course I started using ’em. I have multiple schedules set down so that it’s blocking it during the day. But what’s interesting, you have the ability to grant, for as long as I say, or block, for as long as I say. And it overrides the schedules. So, what my daughter, ’cause she’s so smart … What she would do, is every chance she would get, she’d grab my device and she would go to “Our Pact” and she would grant it, so that it was granted forever. I forget what … I see it all the time, but granted until I say so, I think is what it is.
But I wouldn’t know that. So I would start noticing her behavior getting worse and I would look at my phone and I would see that she had gone in and granted herself permissions. So I talked to her about it and I said, “Sarah, we agreed, we have a … ” But it’s interesting because some of this is about truly addictive behavior. And my daughter … I don’t think I’ve been around a lot of addictions in my life, but she just is jonesing for that device and I’ve actually had to go even a little bit further than “Our Pact” now and I have taken her device away from her, except for two hours in the evenings. And it’s interesting what happened with that because all of a sudden, she’s socializing with us, she’s talking to her day. This is a really huge problem and I don’t know if it impacts somebody with an intellectual disability different from another brain. But I don’t think as society, we have totally figured out how to use these devices and access to information every second of the day and whatever information you want.
Doug, you wanna …
Doug: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think even as adults, I have to look up the source of this, but I stand by this, but I can find the source of it. But I know I had read that the average American swipes their phone over two thousand times per day. So the average amount of touches that we swipe our phone is over two thousand times per day.
Paige: Doesn’t surprise me.
Doug: No, and it’s … You think about that, that’s pretty wild. So you know, we talk about addiction, I certainly think it’s compulsive behavior. Whether it’s truly an addiction, we could argue maybe it’s not truly an addiction, but it certainly is compulsive and I know for my son … I think what’s really important about this conversation and about an app like “Our Pact” is in every other area, we have had to develop child safety. Some type of child safety mechanisms, right? In cars, we have child locks. We have … Even just the way to start a car is not easy, right? It’s intended that children can’t just hit the gas and start going. And I think what’s happened with the internet and with mobile devices, we got ahead. It seems to me like the technology got ahead of our ability to manage it and I think as parents … I mean, I can say this for myself, as someone that I feel like I’m a fairly technologically literate person. I’m on the computer all day long, I feel very comfortable with technology. But yet I still was struggling with what do I do? How do I deal with this?
I think that the idea that we need to have and we need to talk about what are the mechanisms that we’re going to help children and perhaps people with intellectual disabilities and ourselves regulate and moderate usage.
Paige: Yeah. Well, and I think that circling back to something that you kind of touched on there for a second, Debra, one thing that is really important to keep in mind about children and a lot of children also with developmental challenges or learning disabilities, is that there’s an issue with impulsivity. So, they aren’t able to set those limits themselves. They need to have those limits enforced.
I actually had a really interesting conversation this past week with a mother and digital parenting expert named Alexandra Samuel. I actually recommend listeners to check her out, she’s brilliant. And she has a son who’s on the autism spectrum disorder, and so this has been a huge challenge for her because her son is just drawn to technology. It’s something that he’s just totally in tune with. And so for her, it’s one of those situations where she feels like every single day, there’s just a back and forth. They’re needing to come to agreements about this and that and so for her to have one of those arguments … I think I mentioned this before, but have one of those arguments, leave the table. And be able to make her son feel so he’s in control of the technology, as opposed to the technology being in control of him.
He plays and pauses his allowance, he controls the amount of time that he’s on his device. He has to really stop and think, “Okay, do I want to go on my device and use up my time right now or would I rather be using this time to do something else?” And encouraging children, especially who might have just that inclination toward technology and maybe an aversion to social situations more, encouraging that online offline balance of, “Okay, this is your unplugged time. You can’t just have technology at all hours. You need to be able to go outside, be in nature, connect with other children, connect with other teenagers.” And that’s really, really, really important.
Debra: I agree. And Paige, you were also telling us before we started the show, how many users. And I was really surprised at the number, so would you tell us? Because obviously, Doug and I aren’t the only one, and I know there’s a lot of people are making comments right now on Facebook and we definitely are going to be replying to those, but this is a pretty significant issue.
Paige: Yeah, it really is. We have users all over the world and we actually did our best to keep the application free for as long as possible because at the end of the day, we saw this as just a resource that we wanted to share. But yeah, we have I think almost a million managed child devices, or not even child.
Coming back again to the fact that a lot of adults use this. I use this for myself and a lot of people in our office use it on themselves. We have young professionals all the time who are reaching out, saying, “Hey, I’m using your app to block myself during work.” It’s very, very diverse. We have … It’s really, really interesting.
Doug: That’s a good point. Yeah, I think it goes to that whole thing about truly, it’s like … I think of it like any other technology that, like fire, or anything that is powerful. Any powerful technology. I think of the story of Icarus. And Debra, you talked about mindfulness, too, right? That just being able to be mindful because we can … Boy, it can be a time suck. I know for myself, too, you turn around and you’re like “Oh my god, what have I been doing for the last three hours?”
Debra: Yeah, and it’s so easy to do that. And I find myself doing it, too. And I’ll be really tired or low energy and I just get on there and I look up and two hours have passed, and I’ve thought, “Oh geez, Debra.” And so it isn’t just about children, but I also want to say something that I just think is interesting. Paige, you talk about you wanted to keep it free for so long. I am definitely showing my age here, but I pay $1.99 a month. So we’re not talking about big bucks here, guys. I think, ooh, the top one, which I’m gonna upgrade to is like $6.99 a month. And for the peacefulness in my family, I could pay you so much more than that because …
Paige: Yeah, it’s insane. We have parents that are reaching out to us all the time. We have a virtual bulletin where we share the positive feedback that we get from parents and even before we became a paid application, which we needed to do just to keep things moving in the right direction. A lot of people, I think, assume that we might be developing out of a garage, but we have a huge team of people, everyone has their role and there’s a reason why the application is as good as it is. But when we were a free application, we literally had parents regularly reaching out to us and saying, “I love your application so much, I don’t know how this is free, but let me make a donation to your company.”
Debra: That’s the way I felt.
Paige: [inaudible 00:29:57] every single day, parents just saying, “You have no idea how much this application has changed my life.” And most of our marketing is word of mouth. It’s just parents in the parking lot saying, “Have you used this application before? It’s changed everything.” So, I think that in and of itself speaks a lot.
Debra: And I think, once again, it’s not just for parents because we as individuals are learning this too. And so, I do want to be mindful during the day and I find that when I’m on my devices … And I work in technology, but I do start getting anxious when I’m on it too long and there’s a reason why. I don’t think our brains are made to just stare at these devices all day long. So, I just think this is a very, very critical topic and a topic that I’m starting to see more people talk about. Step away, be more mindful, meditate, go outside and play. Which is for all of us, but there’s so many reasons why “Our Pact” has helped my family, but it got to be a very negative situation with me constantly, constantly fighting with my daughter. And I thought, “I don’t want to be in a fight with my daughter all the time.” And I don’t always want to be the bad guy either. I sort of want her to like me, you know?
Paige: Sort of.
Debra: Yeah. Just a little bit.
Paige: Yeah, exactly. Let the application be the bad guy. That’s the … You just do it and if you involve your kid and then you just … “Hey, it’s not me, it’s the application.”
Debra: Right. “We agreed, remember?”
Doug: What I like about it too is the fact that it is called “Our Pact” and that actually, there really isn’t a bad guy. I like the fact that it’s also, “Hey, this is an agreement.” You know? That’s a great … Whether it’s an agreement with yourself or an agreement with your child or an agreement with your coworker, it’s more about, “Hey we agreed to set this limit” and the application forces you to stick to it, but it’s really an agreement.
Paige: It’s also interesting, we hear a lot from children and of course we have some who reach out and they [inaudible 00:32:08] fans of us, but we have children every once in a while reach out and say, “Hey, you guys aren’t that bad. I actually kind of like having these limits in place. This is nice and I have an excuse to tell my friends, ‘Hey, you know what? After 8:00 PM, my phone’s blocked. I won’t be able to talk.’ And then I get to hang out and relax.” It’s interesting because … And even parents, they’ll tell us all the time, “As soon as I introduced it, there was a little bit of pushback at first, but once we remained consistent with it …” And that’s another key, is consistency. Once we kind of established that this is not going anywhere anytime soon, my children just accepted it and now they love it because it’s balance for them at the end of the day, it’s healthy. And you feel that.
Debra: Yeah. You know, Paige, I think I told Doug this story, but I had done this with my daughter. We sat down and had a talk and you know. Not that she had a choice, but she agreed to it. And about two weeks into this … And I use it faithfully. As a matter of fact, because my daughter’s so smart, I actually take my “Our Pact” application and I move it around on my phone in different folders so she can’t find it so fast. Anyway, that’s a whole ‘nother story.
But I remember she had had just a wonderful day and I thought, “I’m going to reward her for just doing so well today.” So I went into her room and I said, “Sarah, you did so great today. I’m going to extend your bedtime for 30 minutes and I’ll turn the app on … I’ll adjust it so you can have access you everything.” And she said, “No thanks, Mom, I’m tired.” And I was like, “Oh, this is working, this is working.” I’m just … You know, we’re not talking a lot of money here and of course we want “Our Pact” to stay in business because we need something to keep ourselves and our children and our family members healthy. We really do. But Paige, tell the audience how they can find out about “Our Pact.”
Paige: Definitely. So, you can find us at ourpact.com. You can check out what it’s all about at that website and you can actually sign up for an account. Or you can find us in the iOS app store or the Google Play store. The way it works is you first sign up for your account on the parent end or the guardian end and once you’ve signed up, you then pair your child devices. And when you pair your child devices, you’re kind of just guided through the whole process from step A to Z, once you sign up for your account. You actually install a child application onto the managed device, and so that communicates when the schedule blocks are, if there is a manual block in place, explaining when that’s going to expire, and if you’re on the premium tier of management. It also enables for the tracking of the device and also for allowance; managing the allowance time with a play and pause.
Debra: And I’ll also say that there was one time when I wanted to be a little bit more sophisticated with the application and I wanted to do these creative schedules, and I found that their customer service was excellent. It was just excellent. That’s one way that I found out about Paige, because I was trying to figure out how to continue to do it so that … I was trying to figure out what the number is because when does my daughter’s … And of course it’s different depending on every day, but she gets mesmerized by the device. Is it at an hour and a half? Is it at two hours?
I was trying to figure that out and so I went to “Our Pact” to ask some questions and I just found that the customer service was excellent. So kudos, Paige, to you and your team for that, too. ‘Cause sometimes you don’t get that with apps and I sort of don’t even expect to get that kind of excellent customer service for something that I’m paying so little for that’s providing so much value. But I just think this is a really, really critical topic and I know Doug was walkin’ this and I just really, really believe in “Our Pact.” But also I think, regardless of whether you choose to use something like “Our Pact” to try to manage these situations, we all need to be aware that we put our children a little bit more at risk if we’re not watching this.
Paige: I couldn’t agree more. And I mean, there’s no harm in checking it out. We do also offer, just to mention, a one week free trial. So, you can sign up and pair your child devices, get a feel for it and if it’s something … You know, it’s not necessarily gonna work out for everyone, but for most people, it probably will. And I think that it’s one of those things a lot of parents say, “I didn’t even know that this existed and then once I had it, I literally felt like a superhero.” It’s crazy, so … Yeah, it’s definitely important to set those boundaries. There’s not much negative that can come from it.
Debra: I agree. I agree. And once again, as Doug was saying, it’s “Our Pact,” so we’re doing it as a family together. Or you’re doing it for yourself as an individual.
Doug, thank you again for joining with your wisdom and Paige, we love you and we love “Our Pact” and thank you for making my home a little bit more peaceful. I am so grateful for that.
Paige: It’s our pleasure. We’re so glad that we’ve found you and you’ve found us. This is what it’s all about. We’re happy to be helping.
Debra: Yes. And so once again, it’s www.ourpact.com, but we also will put all that out on the show and make sure you have the links, but … Very important conversation to be having and I think everybody and all the comments that people made on Facebook, too, and I will talk to everybody next time. Thanks, everybody.
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